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Prostate cancer return.

User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 11:09

We had the phone consultation. PSA has dropped to 1.1 in the 6 weeks. So that’s good. We didn’t ask many questions because the consultant suggested changing to a different one at our local hospital. DH started saying he was happy to stick with him, but after promising I wouldn’t talk while he was on the phone I interrupted to say see the new chap as his nearer and it’ll be face to face. DH did ask about SABR and this new chap is the lead on this at our local hospital. So that might be a possibility too. He said that we need to discuss having another drug added too.

So hopefully we will get to see the new chap soon and I’ll take my list of questions.  Be good to see the scan too if we can. 

User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 13:19
Wow that is a massive drop in PSA something here doesn't add up!
User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 16:01

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Wow that is a massive drop in PSA something here doesn't add up!

 

Isn’t the PSA meant to drop down quickly? He was on casodex for 4 weeks, Zoladex 2 weeks into casodex, zoladex is now just over 3 weeks in. It was 4.9

User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 18:31
I don't think it is a cause to be concerned Wiosal - it just tells you that the HT is starving the cancer cells
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 18:41
Sorry wiosal I had missed that, didn't realise he had already started Ht
User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 18:58

Thanks Lyn. No I’m not concerned. I have read that the brca2 mutation often means HT doesn’t work. So I’m glad all is well for the moment. Let’s hope it keeps working. 

User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 21:19
I don't think that there is a strong evidence base to suggest that BRCA2 stops HT from being effective or makes men more likely to be hormone-independent (castrate-resistant) earlier than others. However, when a BRCA2 man does become castrate-resistant, there is a second line HT treatment that only works for those men.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 21:36

Thanks Lyn. Yes I’ve read about that drug too. Brachytherapy worked first time and the consultant said it’s still worked as nothing in the prostate. I still don’t understand how cells got into the nodes if they aren’t in the prostate (presumably original diagnosis of N0 was wrong) anyway…as that worked with this gene, hopefully HT will work for a while. The consultant said today that hopefully the HT will keep the cancer at bay for another 10 years. Google tells me the average is 3 years. I wish he would tell it as it is. Hopefully the new consultant will be a bit more honest. 

User
Posted 08 Nov 2023 at 23:59

Wiosal, pleased to see the drop in PSA and perhaps progress on options going forward with the new guy.

Thanks Chris 

User
Posted 21 Nov 2023 at 15:05

We have a copy of the the letter from the consultant to the more local one that dh will see. It’s still has original diagnosis at the top with Gleason 3+3 N0 etc. 

On the back it then tells details of the psma scan. It looks like there are more than a couple of nodes involved. It says multiple highly avid nodes in left sidewall (SUV max 11) a few more at the aortic bifurcation and infrarenal paraaortic regions (SUV up to 7) Additional avid lymph nodes in posterior mediastinum at the level of carina (SUV up to 9) no abnormal uptake in the prostate. 

So this looks like quite a few nodes involved. Though it’s all a bit gobbledygook to me. 

User
Posted 23 Nov 2023 at 19:17

Annoyingly the hospital appointment has come through for next thurs. But DH came down with Covid this week. He’s never had covid before. He didn’t catch it from me when I had it 18 months ago. He also took our oldest to a meeting by car, knowing he’d got Covid and didn’t catch it then either. Dh has phoned the hospital and they said he will have to have a phone consultation instead. I wanted to speak to someone. I have so many questions. DH asked if we can have a later date but they said no. Dh is to do a test Monday morn. which I am sure will be positive still then he’s to phone with result. I am disappointed now. 

User
Posted 26 Nov 2023 at 20:18

I am not sure whether anyone is still following. But I will ask anyway. As it is looking like the consultation is likely to be via telephone again, I won’t be able to ask my list of questions. I also feel it would be good for the consultant to see dh is fit and well, but anyway….one thing I really want to know, if anyone on here can answer; is there a benefit to going on an arta now? I’m assuming they intend to use abi or enza. From what I’ve read, these are both usually used once ht is starting to fail. As dh has just started ht surely it makes sense to start the next drug once ht fails? Can these arta’s be taken for many years? They don’t look particularly good drugs to take, so to me, if ht is doing the job, why add something else? 
I have also read on here that one of those drugs is only given if there are bone mets. In which case it won’t be that one. 

User
Posted 26 Nov 2023 at 21:01

Yes, there's always someone following, sometimes we just don't know the answer and hope someone else will. I guess you will just have to do your best with the question list, if DH will allow you to speak on the phone and consultant agrees, I guess you could get through the list, though I agree face to face would be better.

I can't fault your logic on waiting until HT fails before moving on to the next drug. If I found myself in the position of recurrence I think I would be looking at delaying each treatment start as long as possible. However if the science says otherwise then maybe it is best follow the science.

The following article argues the case for starting all treatments together.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2059702922002058

Trials try and find the best treatment for the average man, and quite realistically we are nearly all very close to average. If there is a reason such as a lifestyle choice or other condition which justifies not following the best treatment for the average man, then definitely make an informed decision about treatment choice; if not then just go with what is recommended.

Dave

User
Posted 26 Nov 2023 at 21:12

Thanks Dave. Yes that article talks about when the cancer becomes hormone resistant. DH’ has only just started zoladex and so far is working. So this is something I must ask. There must be a benefit I guess otherwise why is it being suggested? 

User
Posted 26 Nov 2023 at 23:52
Men have fought for years for the right to have Abiraterone or Enzalutimide from the start, rather than later when the standard HT has begun to fail. Now research has shown that men live longer if they have abi / enza early and the price has dropped so it has been approved for this use. Your OH is being offered something that only 2 or 3 years ago, men with PCa could only dream of (unless they had unlimited amounts of money or a very generous health insurer). I guess the same applies to the newer drug, Apalutimide, as well but not so much to daralutimide.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Nov 2023 at 00:06

Hi Wiosal, No it says "Hormone sensitive prostate cancer" so this article is talking about patients similar to your DH.

Dave

User
Posted 27 Nov 2023 at 16:18

Thanks Dave. For some reason I got hormone sensitive and hormone resistant muddled up. 

Thanks Lynne. There seem so many dodgy side effects on all these drugs. I know that they are better than letting the cancer spread, but can’t help wondering whether it’s best to wait. At some point the zoladex will stop working, then there would be the ARTA’s to fall back on. However I know that you know your stuff and will be correct. 

DH doesn’t really have any side effects from zoladex at the moment, only slightly tired.

The hospital asked him to do a Covid test this morn. Of course it’s still positive. Though he’s better, just a cough left. They have said he can do another weds morn. then phone. Weds is day 11 from first symptoms. I think it may well be positive still. If so, the consultation will be on the phone on Thursday. 

User
Posted 30 Nov 2023 at 17:49

We had the phone consultation today. I do feel the consultant was helpful and answered questions. 

I told him dh hadn’t been told anything much really, not even that HT is forever. So he confirmed this with dh, then he suggested starting chemo next, but when I told him about the brca2 gene which wasn’t on dh’s notes,he said chemo isn’t effective with the gene. So as I thought dh will go on enza. Dh will get an appointment with a nurse before starting on it. Then another appointment 4 weeks in. The hospital is about 45 mins drive and the tablets must be picked up there, so once he’s settled on the drug they will prescribe it in 3 month chunks. Once this all stops working dh can have olaparib. We were also given a life expectancy of 3-6 years. That wasn’t good news. I’m sure dh can beat that! 

User
Posted 30 Nov 2023 at 18:32

Is this a new consultant? I think I read earlier that you had changed hospitals, but that may have been another thread. Anyway it is good that you are now getting some clear information, even though it isn't very good news.

The BRCA gene not being in the notes is worrying, but not uncommon. It seems that with the modern NHS if you as a patient are not on the ball, you are at great risk.

Dave

User
Posted 30 Nov 2023 at 20:56

Yes Dave, the other consultant is the one who performed the brachy. It’s about hour and half drive to that hospital. It’s probably a better hospital as a university one. The new consultant is at our nearest hospital, but he does work at the further away one too. He gave a very different prognosis to the original guy, the original guy asked dh what age his parents lived to, then said oh you have many, many years ahead of you yet then. Dh needs to live another 27 years to hit his fathers age. That won’t happen on this diagnosis. 

I would rather they say it how it is though. But I also know that we don’t know what will happen yet. 

We have had things not passed on in notes before when moving between consultants. So nothing new there. 

User
Posted 30 Nov 2023 at 21:06

The consultant also didn’t work out psa doubling from the last 2 readings. I’m not sure if he did it from the point where it started going up 4 years ago or over a year.  It was at 2.0 earlier this year about 7 months ago, then up to  2.7 3 months later, then to 4.9 in the next 3 months. So from 2.0 to 4.9 in 6 months. But he said the doubling time was 9 months. Yet to me in the 3 months before HT it almost doubled. So I don’t understand his theory. But it doesn’t effect treatment etc. so I guess it doesn’t matter. 

User
Posted 30 Nov 2023 at 23:22
When they work out doubling time, they take more than the last couple of readings into account.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 30 Nov 2023 at 23:26

I found a PSA calculator in line. 

https://www.mdcalc.com/calc/10198/psa-doubling-time-psadt-calculator

If you put in all his results from may22 to the latest it does average out at about 9 months. I can see your point that the latest two results put it at about four months, but as you say it makes little difference.

I think at least you are now in a position to manage the medications and the treatment. It sounds like most treatment options have been ruled out. You could consider looking at trials, remember they are partially tested treatments so don't get your hopes up based on a new trial. The main beneficiary of a trial is likely to be the next generation not the person on the trial.

Dave

User
Posted 01 Dec 2023 at 10:24

Thanks for replies. I found a link to a doubling check on here a while back, it asked for dates of the last 2 readings and came up with 3.4 months or something around there. But like I said, it doesn’t make that much difference to treatment etc. Dh just says what will be, will be. 
He is more worried about the pains in his tummy he’s had the last few weeks. They started about a week into zoladex. He thinks it’s the nodes hurting, but it is probably more likely him worrying causing it. The consultant said it could be the zoladex and that if it continues they will try something else. 

User
Posted 13 Feb 2024 at 21:07

I thought I’d do an update. Now that DH has been on enzalutamide for a few months and zoladex almost 4 months. He’s been quite tired on the drugs, he’s really slowed down on our dog walks, I used to struggle to keep up, but now we often have to stop for a rest. But he’s keeping up the walking, so that’s good. He’s been busy decorating too. The worst thing has been headaches, muzziness and sharp pains in the back of his head, the pains lasting only a few seconds each time, a couple of times a day, but still a bit worrying. At his nurse phone consultation she suggested stopping them for a week, that didn’t make any difference, after the week he was put on 3 tablets instead of 4. But still the same. The nurse did suggest trying a different drug, the one with the steroid, but dh says he doesn’t want steroids. But I’ve read if you are going to change drug, it has to be done in a certain time frame. So dh should probably think seriously about it. I have read enza is the better drug though.

Dh didn’t have any hot flushes at all just on zoladex, but does now they’ve added enza. I’ve been joking about with him, as he makes such a fuss, I said it’s a bit like man flu. I know they aren’t nice and I shouldn’t joke, but he started it by saying “when you used to get hot flushes” I still do get them regularly, I just don’t tell everyone, strip off and have to stop whatever I’m doing like him. I’m only messing about with him, of course his situation is a lot worse. 

Dh had a diabetes and cholesterol test done recently as the drugs can cause diabetes and he was pre diabetic before, he is already on statins even though his cholesterol was never high, enza can stop the statins working. The blood sugar was high, well into the diabetes zone, but they said re test in 6 months and no treatment needed. Cholesterol was 5.01 which isn’t high, but the gp said to double the dose anyway. Not sure on the theory there.

PSA was less than 1.0 at the last test, he’s having it done again in a couple weeks, before the nurse consultation, plus other bloods to check he’s ok on the enza.

One thing…dh has had a bad back for years, it has got worse the last 2 or 3. Now he’s on HT his back has improved with little pain at all. I did have a thought that maybe he’d got mets in his spine, but surely they’d have been picked up on the psma scan, plus his back has been bad for such a long time it can’t be prostate cancer related as it would have been much worse after all this time. So no idea why the drugs are helping his back, but a good thing. 

The last thing to add, the lack of libido. It is so strange, I’ve had 29 years of him driving me mad in that department. A week without and he’d get bad tempered and moody. So now doesn’t get moody, the lack of testosterone certainly makes a difference there. It still feels really odd, the thought of him never really wanting me is still hard to take, of course life is more important though. If he puts his mind to it, he can still “perform” so I guess that is a plus too. Zoladex alone had no effect on libido, but he was only on it for a couple of months before enza was added. Maybe it wasn’t long enough. 

DH never had a face to face appointment with the consultant, that is a bit disappointing. Just the one phone call. Now he gets phone calls from the nurse. Next one end of Feb. I guess that’s all we will get as long as the drugs keep working. 

 
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