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completely terrified and distraught

User
Posted 03 Dec 2023 at 11:02

Sorry for what you're going through, and your thoughts are similar to many of us at that stage (certainly mine, although my diagnosis was at a different point on the scale).

Firstly, since you are being offered Active Surveillance (even if you ruled out taking it), there's no hurry in choosing your treatment.

It's worth asking to talk with a prostatectomy surgeon. Ask what they think is the likelihood of long term incontinence, and what is the likelihood of permanent erectile dysfunction in your case. If the surgeon performs Retzius Sparing surgery (which most don't - the standard robotic procedure is called retropubic surgery), your recovery of continence is likely to be faster (although after a year, there's no difference because the retropubic surgery patients have caught up to the same level). You could ask your CNS if any of the local surgeons do Retzius Sparing and if you could specifically talk with that one. Maintaining of natural erectile function depends on being able to do nerve sparing surgery and that will depend where the cancer is inside the prostate, so you should ask about that. Unfortunately, they won't be able to guarantee nerve sparing until they actually get to see the prostate during the op, and even with nerve sparing, there are no guarantees of preserving erectile function. There is a procedure called Neurosafe or Frozen Sections (same thing) which increases the chances of being able to do nerve sparing surgery, but the only hospital which offers this on the NHS as far as I know is the Lister at Stevenage.

You should have a similar talk with the focal therapy surgeon. An extra thing to understand with focal therapy is if they will be clearing all the cancer spots, or just the largest or more aggressive ones. They can usually only do a maximum of two, in which case they do the two largest or most aggressive, and you go back on to Active Surveillance if there were any additional ones. In practice, you go back on to something similar to Active Surveillance in any case, because prostate cancer often doesn't just spring up in one spot in the prostate and it can spring up elsewhere later on. Sometimes additional focal therapy can be used in that case. Sometimes a different whole-prostate salvage treatment would be required such as salvage prostatectomy or salvage radiotherapy. (Salvage means it's not the first treatment, the first treatment having failed to cure.) Salvage treatments often have poorer outcomes in terms of erectile function and continence than if you'd had that treatment as your original primary treatment. For salvage prostatectomy, you would definitely want to go to one of very few surgeons who specialise in it.

Always be weary of talking with a clinician about a treatment they don't do. While it might be interesting to hear what they say, many tend to think their treatment is the best and they actually don't know much about the other treatment, so always get view from those clinicians who do the treatments you're interested in.

You can take Active Surveillance while you consider the surgeons' responses if you want longer to do so. Anyone on Active Surveillance has the right to switch to active treatment at any point.

It's also worth pointing out that Active Surveillance is not without risks too. Sometimes, the initial diagnosis wasn't correct and missed something more serious which wasn't eligible for Active Surveillance. That doesn't matter as much with prostatectomy or radiotherapy since the whole prostate is treated in any case. This does matter for Active Surveillance and focal therapies. The focal therapy centres know this and will often do more detailed imaging to be more sure of the diagnosis, but that isn't usually done for Active Surveillance. Also, Active Surveillance is not without side effects over a long term. Biopsies do impact erectile function, usually by too small an amount for anyone to notice, but with repeated biopsies over many years, the effect seems to be cumulative, and men on Active Surveillance for many years do report reduced erectile function over men not diagnosed with prostate cancer. There is also a small risk of going metastatic while on Active Surveillance, due to the biopsies having missed something more serious.

In summary, focal therapy probably has less risk of side effects in the immediate future. It could turn out to be completely curative, but that's the data we don't currently have on focal therapy. However, if you need whole gland treatment in the future, the risks of incontinence and impotence are higher after that than if you had the whole gland treatment in the first place, but you might have gained some years of very low, if any, side effects before that happened.

Also, as a younger man with prostate cancer, you are looking for 30+ years in remission, which is a tall order from a single treatment. This means you shouldn't be surprised if you needed another treatment at some point in your lifetime, and for that reason a first treatment which has some good follow-up options would be good. That would apply to both focal therapies and prostatectomy as your primary treatment, but less so for radiotherapy which you could keep in reserve for when you're older. Having said that, brachytherapy may be another possible choice in your case, and because it avoids spilling much radiation outside the prostate (particularly with a rectal spacer), it is sometimes considered appropriate for younger patients.

I hope that's helpful in trying to weigh up options. No one can tell you which option to take, because it's a personal thing. You can have two men with an identical diagnosis, but with different factors which are important for them and therefore different treatments might be right for them. Sadly, there is no zero risk option.

Edited by member 03 Dec 2023 at 11:12  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 03 Dec 2023 at 11:28

Thanks a lot @Andy62 for your excellent and succinct write-up. You seem to have captured most of our journeys, I am 18mths post-op and sometimes wonder if I made the right decision to opt for the surgery. However, with each passing positive milestone, I believe I made the right call!

User
Posted 03 Dec 2023 at 12:35
Removing the prostate is an overtreatment at one point, especially if you have a single low-grade lesion.

Criterion Focal therapy, the risk of a new tumor in the untreated area is 30% at 5 years.

The objective of focal therapy is to control the tumor in almost 90% of the treated areas
and the patient must leave the operating room with the tumor controlled, powerful and continent.

We assume that the rest of the prostate is normal and the tumor is close to the left neurovascular band
and must be treated with a safety margin of 5 or 10 mm. If we try we run the risk of damaging that tray.
It is possible that due to my age and if my erections are good, I can maintain an erection
even if we treat part of the band to respect the appropriate safety margin.

We use Irreversible Electroporation (IRE) because it does not burn, it is the safest and most versatile and precise,
and if in the future you get an injury and the prostate has to be removed, the idea is to be able to remove it
with the same safety as we remove it in normal men. In my case it seems that the lesion is in the left apical area
close to the left neurovascular band and it is not recommended to do focal therapy with thermal elements.

Why do we think you have to remove the prostate...??
because you have a large enough lesion but right now you are in little danger,
but the tumor is going to grow and as it grows it will be more aggressive and it is close to the left neurovascular band so when it grows it will be closer to being even more close to the band and then it will be necessary to remove the band for oncological safety and if you remove it you reduce the possibility of coming out of the surgery strong so why do active surveillance and take risks.

Can focal therapy be done? I can do it for you… Can I control that tumor?
Surely, with a probability of 90%, to safely treat the problem, part of the band will have to be treated
and if a new tumor appears in the future, that band will have to go away along with the prostate. There are patients who, with a band alone, can achieve a 70% preservation of their erection, which is well above the average for those who operate this. So we have a 30% chance of having erectile dysfunction with a low-risk tumor.

Can we do focal therapy? Yes, I meet all the criteria, the only problem is the location of the lesion
(near the left neurovascular band).

- Could we take a chance? YES, we could treat that tumor and in the future you won't have anything,
but you should know that if a new tumor appears it will compromise that band in the future,
as it is because of your youth I don't think you will have erectile dysfunction problems.
if we treat you with focal therapy. You have to take a safety margin that in my case I would not take
as wide to preserve the nerve.

- Focal Therapy (Irreversible Electroporation) is what we outline and what we treat and avoid focal therapies
of thermal origin (HIFU) that are normally used in patients who already have erectile dysfunction.
It is like a magnifying glass that what it does is boil a part of the tissue, so what it does is when you treat
with HIFU you are causing a burn, which will destroy the lesion but you have an intermediate zone
(which is usually between 1 cm and 1 .5 cm between the burn and the healthy tissue)
that you do not control and that may or may not be destroyed because it has reached high temperature
because the heat diffuses, so you do not control the margins as much.
Conclusion that HIFU in my case is going to cause more nerve damage than Electroporation.





User
Posted 03 Dec 2023 at 12:37
- With Electroporation the defined area is treated without the risk of “inadvertently” treating the adjacent areas
and it is recommended to leave a safety margin of 1 cm around it, which in my case could be done
by treating the left band a little. HIFU will treat the injury and will affect the band much more
than Electroporation, which is why we use Electroporation.

- What we know is that when it is a Gleason 6 it is a tumor that has little tendency to infiltrate
and right now has a very low metastatic capacity, but this without doing anything would end your life
in about 15 years, thank God you have a very early diagnosis
and you have the most favorable one and it couldn't be better news.

- We do not recommend radiotherapy in young patients because it cures 15% less than surgery
after 15 years and surgery after radio is a disaster.

- You have to do surgery or focal therapy but I advocate surgery more because of the location of your lesion,
even if it is a Gleason 6 because it will continue to grow and it will be even closer
to the bandelette and closer to the sphincter than not having Positive margins
will make the surgery even more demanding.

- You are in a very good situation to be cured and without sequelae, so you have to decide.

- If you choose focal therapy, Electroporation in my case is the perfect technique because it allows
us to delimit with more precision and allows us to stick closely to the edge so as not to damage the band,
but of course the more you stick and the less margin you take, the greater the risk of not control
the tumor completely and there will be a local recurrence, and if we widen the margin
we run the risk of damaging the left neurovascular band now and in the future if rescue with surgery
is needed and we have to see with that perspective and in my case if there is a Gleason 6 recurrence
can then be controlled with radio with good results.

- With focal therapy we cure most of our patients.

- If the focal therapy goes poorly in the future, the prostate would have to be removed
without compromising the healing but compromising that left band previously treated
in the past and there is a 30% probability of a new tumor in the untreated area.

User
Posted 03 Dec 2023 at 14:04
Just a word of caution. The diagnosis from the MRI and Biopsy is only their best guess based on the results of the scan images and the samples taken from the biopsy.

For example, my Gleason 3+4=7 became a 4+5=9 T3b N0 M0 when removed and examined in the lab.

Just so that you are aware that things can change.

User
Posted 04 Dec 2023 at 09:09

What do you recommend I do to solve my problem
taking into account my age and the type of tumor?

The surgeon specializing in robotic surgery speaks of a 90% chance of maintaining urinary continenceand 90%
of maintaining an erection (figures seem too optimistic to me) The focal therapy specialist speaks of 90% tumor control and 100% conservation of continence and erection, but the possibility of a 30% appearance of a new tumor in the rest of the untreated prostate must be considered. within 5 years, because MRI may not see small tumor foci.

Edited by member 04 Dec 2023 at 09:14  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 04 Dec 2023 at 14:32
Why discount what the surgeon says? He/she is the expert. It's no good getting a diagnosis/advice and then discounting it because it's doesn't match the way you feel. You have had a shock and it will affect your judgement - you have convinced yourself that it's worse than it is.

My recommendation is listen to your surgeon and get that cancer ridden 'mothership' of a prostate out of you. But that is because that is what I did so yes, I have a predisposition to recommending it LOL

But seriously, listen to your consultant and believe what they tell you - they are the experts.

User
Posted 04 Dec 2023 at 14:41

Ok so do you think in my case that I am thinking that everything is worse than it really is and will I be able to cure myself with hardly any after-effects?

I am terrified of surgery, the catheter, and incontinence and erectile dysfunction.

User
Posted 04 Dec 2023 at 15:29

I went the rt/ht route didn't want all the side effects was Gleason 9 psa 24.9  over 3years siñce end off treatment psa remaining at 0.01 more than one way to skin a cat I have remained free off side effects and can  manage a erection at will πŸ‘

User
Posted 04 Dec 2023 at 15:43

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

I went the rt/ht route didn't want all the side effects was Gleason 9 psa 24.9  over 3years siñce end off treatment psa remaining at 0.01 more than one way to skin a cat I have remained free off side effects and can  manage a erection at will πŸ‘

I'm very happy for you Gaz, but I can't help thinking that you're the exception rather than the rule. From what I've read on here, no matter what radical treatment you chose, if you're completely side effect free after 3 years. You're a very lucky bunny.

User
Posted 04 Dec 2023 at 18:28

Not so sure about that adrianus I have kept in touch with three lads who went through the same treatment at the same time all doing really well the new linear machines are cutting edge πŸ‘

User
Posted 05 Dec 2023 at 08:32

Don't you think that a robotic radical prostatectomy is an overtreatment in a gleason 6 tumor?

In the end I see that the treatment is the same
if it is organ-confined whether it is gleason 6, 7, or 8-10.

Where is the advantage of having a gleason 6 if in the end the treatment
and side effects are the same for everyone?

User
Posted 05 Dec 2023 at 08:54

Morning mate.

The ProtecT trial recorded outcomes of various procedures for over 1600 low/medium risk prostate cancer patients. Maybe it'll be of some use to you.

https://www.urologytimes.com/view/protect-trial-researchers-active-monitoring-yields-same-outcomes-as-radical-treatment-in-prostate-cancer.

 

Edited by member 05 Dec 2023 at 08:57  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 05 Dec 2023 at 10:19

Read this morning there is a push for HIFU to be more widely available on the NHS? The mirror are running a story about it... Just thought I'd mention it....

Edited by member 05 Dec 2023 at 10:19  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 27 Dec 2023 at 07:51
Dear friends, I write again... I'm letting these Christmas days pass
but I can't get the problem out of my head for even a single minute...

As I said, I have prostate cancer ISUP 1 Gleason 6 and I am only 51 years old.

I have consulted 4 or 5 specialists and there are all kinds of opinions,
from AS to radical prostatectomy (they all seem to avoid radiotherapy... because of my age?

Of course, and we have read many men here, radical prostatectomy, even with a da Vinci robot,
causes devastating side effects. In my case, they propose surgery with preservation of neurovascular bundles.
Do you think surgery is the right option for me? Will I have a minimal impact on my quality of life?

I'm looking forward to your opinions, I'm having the worst Christmas of my life...

User
Posted 27 Dec 2023 at 10:51

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

 I'm having the worst Christmas of my life...

Me too, the spouts were awful and the turkey's bone dry. πŸ˜‰

Joking apart, I was on active surveillance for almost 2 years, but unfortunately the disease progressed and I opted for RARP. So I have experienced both of these treatment options. In my opinion you have to be pretty laid back to deal with AS, and with all due respect, you seem to be a bit on the anxious side. Having said, that even if you elect the surgery option, you still have the worry of recurrence to deal with. I've just been reading through the replies on this conversation and many include excellent advice, but at the end of the day, its your choice mate, no one can make it for you. All I can do is wish you the very best of luck, whatever decision you make.

Adrian

 

User
Posted 27 Dec 2023 at 11:17

Hello Adrianus... and yes u are right... i am very very anxious... :(

Did you have RARP with nerve sparing? How are you dealing with the side effects? Is the postoperative period horrible and painful? What about the urinary catheter?

I see in your profile from the gleason 9 biopsy in August 2022
to the surgery in February 2023, 6 months passed, isn't that too long?

Edited by member 27 Dec 2023 at 11:22  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 27 Dec 2023 at 11:40

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Did you have RARP with nerve sparing? How are you dealing with the side effects? Is the postoperative period horrible and painful? What about the urinary catheter?

Hello mate,

My RARP was non nerve sparing and I was found to be T3a, just breached the capsule Gleason p9 (4+5). I was lucky I had no pain whatsoever. The catheter was nothing more that a temporary inconvenience. I was incontinent through the day, when it was removed, but it was mainly when I coughed or laughed or got up or sat down too quickly. I was completely dry after about 7 months. Erectile dysfunction is a problem, dead as a Dodo downstairs, but can get a decent erection with Invicorp injections. Which last for two hours, which is far longer than I can. My cancer was aggressive which increases the risk of recurrence, so my PSA will have to be monitored for a while. As yet, touch wood, 10 months later, its still undetectable.

Am I happy? I suppose I'm as happy as can be expected. It has affected my life but when I ever start feeling for sorry for myself, I think of those who are a lot worse off than me and think of the consequences, had I not had radical treatment.

It appears prostate cancer treatment is far from an exact science outcomes can vary enormously. You pay your money you take your chances.

Edited by member 27 Dec 2023 at 11:45  | Reason: Additional text.

User
Posted 27 Dec 2023 at 14:33

For you the good news is that in the past decade there has been a tremendous progress in the treatment options - both for radical prostatectomy and RT/HT. As to which is the better option, I doubt if any one including experts, can give you a clear answer. All of us who have experienced this disease can do is to tell you about our journeys, and as you have read here we are all different.  I had prostatectomy 12 years ago and I am still here!  Am I 'cured'? Who can tell?  I suffer from mild incontinence and ED which is somewhat  age related rather than the surgery but for certain my erections are not as good as before. There is anecdotal evidence that erectile function for many men after surgery is unlikely to return to its pre surgery level, even after 2/3 years.  Did I make the right decision?  I think so (hindsight is a wonderful thing) but we had to work quite hard to re-establish our sex life which we have been able to do, not withstanding mild incontinence and severe ED.  In many ways the outcome of any option you choose depends on the expertise of your consultants which depends on what is available in your area. I hope you can find equanimity once you have made your choice. Good luck.

 

Edited by member 27 Dec 2023 at 14:36  | Reason: Not specified

 'Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.'                    Richard Feynman (1918-1988) Nobel Prize laureate

 

 

User
Posted 27 Dec 2023 at 14:41
Thank you very much friend, for your comments and for your time,
the opinion of someone who has gone through this is extremely important.

Regarding surgery I have all kinds of opinions
(I have consulted with 3 or 4 of the best urologists in Spain).

One says that the success rates for incontinence and ED are approximately 90%
and another specialist tells me that his rates are 95% and that he has better rates laparoscopically
than many other surgeons operating with a robot.
These results occur in men under 65 years of age without comorbidities (obesity, diabetes, hypertension...)

I don't know if these values ​​are real or pure marketing...

What I do not know are the cure rates for someone with gleason 6 ISUP grade 1.

 
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