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Has anyone had an MRI Scan before a Biopsy

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 19:28
Hi All,

This is my first time posting on this forum but I have been lurking for a few weeks and the information I have found is invaluable. My husband age 45 confided in my in towards the end of October that he had been feeling unwell, frequent urination, pain in his lower back and upper thighs as well as erectile problems. Me being the type of person I am looked to "Dr Google" for answers and PCA seemed to be the answer, we went to the GP and he suggested blood tests and his PSA came back as 3.33 with also a high Kidney function of 121. We have BUPA through my work so we asked him to refer us to a Urologist and went to see him, he did a blood test 16 days after the initial bloods and that came back as PSA 3.82 and Kidney Function 119. He also did a dre and ultrasound scan and said Prostate is enlarged so he recommended an MRI as he does that before a biopsy as the bleeding after a biopsy can affect reading the MRI? The MRI was Friday last and our doctor is away this week so we have to wait until the 26th for the results of the MRI, it just seems like such a long time and we are really worried. I thought PSA on lower end usually has no symptoms but with his back pain, thigh pain and erectile dysfunction with such a low PSA is making me so worried and we haven't even got the scan results yet or even had a biopsy. To top it off on our first private appointment he told me he has blood in his stools so we saw a Gastric doc last night who found a polyp on examination so now he is also having a colonoscopy.

I am just wondering if anyone has any words of wisdom to add and thanks for listening to my first ramblings....

Thanks,

Trish x

User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 10:32

Hi Trish

My apologies for what has turned into a very long post.

Your husband has potentially more than one cause for his problems and it is essential that these are all logically investigated.  It seems that this is, to a large extent, happening.

One has to say that rectal bleeding in a youngish man should always be taken seriously, but is by no means always due to cancer.  Whilst he may have a polyp, this may well turn out to be totally benign and basically has given him 'a nosebleed through the rectum'.  But a colonoscopy and proper biopsy are the next logical step.  Is there any family history of polyps in the bowel - this can be a significant factor - but I am sure your gastro person has been through this already.

It is not uncommon for a man to initially go to his doctor with symptoms of erectile dysfunction and then to find there is a diagnosis of PCa.  Sadly, not all GPs think about doing a PSA test in this situation.

His PSA of 3.8 is undoubtedly on the high side for a man of his age.  There is a school of thought that PSA screening should take place in all men at the age of 40 - at this age the 'background noise' of normal prostate enlargement is almost zero so that this influence on PSA levels is minimised.  A raised level at this age may not be indicative of the presence of PCa but might indicate the men in whom closer surveillance might be needed in the future.  These levels of PSA are undoubtedly the ones which give the greatest trouble as they are never, in themselves, diagnostic of PCA.  It is one of the major arguments against a national screening campaign for PCa using the PSA test alone.

A proper biopsy is obviously needed for your husband, and doing the MRI scan before this is a very sensible thing.  Biopsy alters the MRI image of the prostate and can confuse the interpretation.  What is not clear from your post is what sort of MRI has been done.  Was this of the whole abdomen, including the spine (because of his back and boney pain) or just of the prostate.  Conventional MRI scanning of the prostate is not that good at identifying PCa within the gland - the technique is just not sensitive enough.  It is mainly used for identifying spread to the lymph nodes within the abdominal cavity and to aid in assessing the overall classification of the aggressiveness of the disease.

What might be worth considering here is further more sensitive MRI scanning and other investigations for PCa.  Many such investigations are not easily available on the NHS in all parts of the country.  However, it seems that you may be able to organise this through your private health insurance.  Your profile also suggests you come from the London area where there is a plethora of private places offering the investigations.

I would strongly suggest it is worth discussing with your urologist that a more sophisticated MRI scan is done - assuming this is not what has already been done.  It is known as a 'multi-parametric MRI scan'.  It needs a more powerful scanner and upgraded software than many NHS hospitals have.  You also need a radiologist with experience in interpreting these scans.  This scan can image the prostate itself much better than the normal scan and can localise much smaller areas of potential cancer within the gland.  This MUST be done prior to any biopsy as the biopsy procedure will significantly alter the images of the gland.  It can also identify more accurately than trans-rectal ultrasound the areas of prostate that should be biopsied.  Some hospitals now use this investigation virtually routinely prior to biopsy and have significantly reduced their biopsy rates because of thei.  I think one of the leading hospitals here is Kings College Hospital.

Other potentially useful tests are to repeat the PSA but to measure the ratio of ‘free’ to total’ PSA  in the blood.  PSA exists in 2 forms – one is found attached to proteins in the blood, the other is just found ‘floating freely’ in the blood.  The normal ratio of these tends to be reversed in PCa.  This estimation is not difficult to do, bit is not routinely requested on PSA testing. The other test is a urine test – PCA3.  This measures the level of Prostate Cancer Antigen-3 which is produced by cancer cells and is the excreted in the urine.  It is obviously high in most men with PCa (but one has to say not ALL men with PCa).  On their own, neither of these is definitively diagnostic, but may help greatly when looked at alongside all other investigations.

One other fact you do not mention is whether there is any family history on PCa in your husband’s family – father, grandfather, brother etc.  As I am sure you know PCa has strong familial links and is 3 times more common if there is a previous family history.  Should your husband be positively diagnosed (and let us hope and pray that this all turns out to be a false alarm), then it is very important that his close male relatives are given appropriate advice and testing.  It is also becoming recognised that some of the genetic abnormalities often associated with PCa are similar to those found in breast cancer – particularly the BRAC 1 gene.  A strong history of breast cancer in close female relatives can also be found in some men with PCa.  Not at all diagnostic, but yet another peripheral factor that should be considered.

So, the bottom line here is to hang in there and don’t be afraid to discuss other potential tests prior to a biopsy.  I know that you will both want answers ASAP, but it will pay dividends in the end to do all of the right investigations in the right order.

Should the diagnosis come back as being positive then there will be a whole range of potential treatments.  It can be confusing initially.  Good advice can be obtained from the helpline at PCUK.  Equally, do find out if there is a Prostate Cancer Support Group in your area.  PCUK should have an up to date list, or similar information can be found from what was originally called the Prostate Cancer Support Federation (now re-branded as ‘TACKLE prostate cancer’). – www.tackleprostate.org     I am Chairman of the Reading Prostate Cancer Support Group (www.rpcsg.org.uk)  and one of our main aims is to provide advice and support about PCa.  We often have men who come to the meetings prior to their treatment or seek advice on the phone.  Talking to someone who has been through the same experience is enormously useful.  I know this from my own personal experience.  Patients now have to be given ‘choice’ in their treatment options – but how does one choose without having some good prior information.  Equally it is important to know how people have coped with the 2 major post-treatment problems – incontinence and impotence.  Whilst these are common problems, they are by no means always present.  But both do gain more importance the younger one is at diagnosis.  Pre-treatment discussion about post-treatment strategies can be very helpful.  Fore-warned is always fore-armed.

I do apologise at the length of this post, but I do think it is essential that we all share adequate and appropriate information.

Please do remember that treatment for PCa is rapidly advancing.  It is by no means a death sentence.  Like breast cancer, it has a wide range of aggressiveness. Caught early, the outcomes can be stunningly good with the appropriate treatment.  I am now 7 years down the line – diagnosed aged 59.  Many of our members are further on that that.

I do know how much of a strain this must be on you both at the moment, particularly with a young family.  Quite rightly, you do not want to tell then anything until you know more definitive details.  Do talk with others if you can.  The pair of you will need some support through this.  The PCUK helpline is always there.  Support Groups are there. Do beware of uncontrolled message boards which at best can be ‘communal whingeing’ and at worst positively destructive.

Steve Allen

 

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 21:45

I went for my biopsy, and they wouldn't do it as I hadn't had the scan. So I went for the scan, was told it looked OK, but PCa was found in 1/12 samples. The scan may show something which hleps the medics, but there again....

This is a worrying time, but worry will not change anything. Try and get on with your lives as best you can. Easier said than done, I know.

Stay Calm And Carry On.
User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 18:37

What a fantastically helpful message Steve, I am sure that others will agree.

Alison

User
Posted 08 Feb 2015 at 18:57
Hi all. I've just started to get involved with the converstations. My PSA was 8 last summer and urologist suggested TRUS biopsy. I had done a bit of research on the subject and I have to say I was NOT convinced. The science seemed too flakey. So I declined. Instead I did some more research and discovered the PROMIS clinical trial (http://www.ctu.mrc.ac.uk/our_research/research_areas/cancer/studies/promis/ ) . This is collecting data to determine if MRI is a reliable diagnostic tool for prostate cancer. It involves having an MRI first, followed by both TRUS and Template biopsies. I asked my GP to ask if I could be accepted onto the trial, which I was and had MRI in October last year and biopsies in November. My results in January indicated that MRI had identified two areas of possible cancer. The TRUS biopsies were all clear. Template biopsies indicated cancer 3+4. While the Template biopsies were not guided or targeted by the MRI results (the trial required the results from the three procedures to be kept independant of each other) I'm glad I got onto this trial and obtained an accurate diagnosis, which I don't think I would have got from a TRUS biopsy alone. I think the PROMIS trial finishes later this year with the results some time later. After my experience, I hope MRI is the first diagnostic tool rather than TRUS biopsy. But like all things NHS I guess it comes down to cost.
User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 20:32

Dear Trish

 

I am sure that someone will pop along with more experience of this than me, but recently it has been suggested that an MRI before a biopsy is actually better than the other way round in terms of detecting Prostate Cancer as it allows the biopsy to be more accurate and targeted at suspicious areas as highlighted by the MRI. Sometimes if the biopsy is done first it can miss bits and give a false result, so in terms of this aspect it may be better.

However the wait is awful and we have all been there and understand how you feel. I am sorry to see that you are here and with such a young husband too, although we are seeing a lot of young men on the site at the moment.

Getting the right diagnosis in the first place is vital though, if you are to get the best treatment plan.

In terms of the aches and pains, this may or may not be related, but you have done the right thing by getting it checked out, as the sooner these things are tackled the more chance of successful treatment.

I am sorry that this is a little rushed as I have a screaming toddler here slapping at the keyboard.....

 

all the best

 

Alison

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 21:05

Hi Trish,
Sorry to say that the waiting is the worst part of the process.
Just try and take a chill pill if you can :)
Try not to make 1+1=3
Don't read everything into this, there are many reasons for other aches and pains.
Easy to say, harder to do....

Thinking of you both


Kevin

Edit - forgot to add, if you click on our names on the right of our pictures many of us have put up our biography in the profile area which you can view.

Have a look around and how things have worked out for others.

Edited by member 18 Nov 2014 at 21:09  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 20:02

I agree that was a great answer Steve.....now about this poorly finger :)

User
Posted 20 Nov 2014 at 22:24

I disagree. I think talk of multi-parametric tests and free PSA to someone only just starting to grapple with the world of the prostate would frighten some people out of their wits and suggesting delaying the biopsy seems crazy in this particular case. Usually, we try to keep things simple for new members and those in the pre-diagnosis stage.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 23 Nov 2014 at 19:03

It's a sin,
It is possible to have an MRI first - some hospitals are doing this routinely now and there is no reason not to ask about the possibility. However, I wonder if your thought process is quite clear? What rationale for asking for scan first? If it is in your mind that the scan might show all is well and then avoid the need for biopsy, think again.

Scans are not perfect and can miss tiny clusters or those that are unusual in some way - according to my husband's scan he had the healthiest of prostates but when it was removed the cancer was throughout the entire gland and into his bladder. The MRI is best used to help determine which areas of the prostate to target in the biopsy.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 25 Nov 2014 at 13:20

Just some experience which might be of interest.

My diagnosis of PCa have been produced purely on the histology of a sample taken during a TURP procedure together with a combined MRI scan plus MRI Spectroscopy (overall that took an hour).  I have not had a needle biopsy and there are no plans for me to have one (am being treated now with 7 months HT then RT).

The point I am trying to make is that I understand a standard MRI scan may not pick up PCa, in many situations.  However, when the MRI scan is done together with an MRI Spectroscopy, the latter does allow chemical signatures of cancer cells to be identified.  It seems to me that the MRI scan plus MRI Spectroscopy is far superior to an ordinary MRI scan and may obviate the need for needle biopsies in future, I gather?  

I don't know if this is the same as multi-parametric MRI, that has already been mentioned, though.

User
Posted 28 Nov 2014 at 01:15

I hope the tablets work - my husband was on them from the age of 35. I just think that your OH is too young for ED to be considered a side issue.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 06 Feb 2015 at 08:17

Trish, 53 now, 54 this year, born 1961. Yes the road is so long, the problem is do we need to know when the PSA testing is so uncertain. Biopsies also hit and miss. The only true benefit I see is to identify fast growing, but other than this, the rest is a nightmare. Even my Urologist told me he tested some years ago because he should but then he has not since, maybe this is explaining the dilmer. The AS wait and see, is also worry as then with so many developments there could find cure....its like trying to guess which way the currency exchange will go when sending money....not been very good at this either. In part I agree with many, have it removed....then less stress of all these tests not knowing. I read about one guy that had 5 biopsies, no cancer, then he told come back in 1-2 years, which he did and just forgot about. Then PSA rasied so much, not he is Stage 2 and stuggling, so both the Biospies and PSA gave false negatives, so this is my main worry. The good thing I see at this stage is maybe not multiple biopsies or thinking it cleared but it not, at least they have MRI to guide and with 81% probability that its inflamation, which is what we hope. The other issue, is information overload and for each bad there is good, however, just like another site called Yana....the people on are all PCa, so you have more of the outcome stories rather than the good news stories so people presume more the negative, so I try to use information for what it is knowing there are millions of men without any issues v ones with issues......although this is sometimes also hard when your that person and you make the decision. Lets hope for a breakthough and stay positive. Ciao Dean

User
Posted 06 Feb 2015 at 09:32

Dean, very few men on here have had the benefit of 3T MRI and apart from you and Devonlad I can only think of two others who have ever referred to their IPSS.

You are right that PSA is not always a reliable indicator, and our urologist refers to biopsy as being like sticking a needle into a fruit cake and hoping to spear a cherry. At least with guided biopsy, you know whether the cherries are around the edges or in the middle. However, scans are not perfect either - my husband's scan was clear so if he hadn't had a positive biopsy first he would have assumed all was okay - as it turned out, the cancer had already spread to his bladder neck.

Active surveillance is a good choice for some men for all sorts of reasons as is close monitoring for men with indicators but frequent negative tests. You could perhaps read Rogcal's profile as he has been in your situation for many, many years now.

Your interpretation that guided MRI in some way reduces or minimises side effects is I think a misunderstanding. The risk of infection is the same, plus you may have the additional risk of general anaesthetic to contend with.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

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User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 20:32

Dear Trish

 

I am sure that someone will pop along with more experience of this than me, but recently it has been suggested that an MRI before a biopsy is actually better than the other way round in terms of detecting Prostate Cancer as it allows the biopsy to be more accurate and targeted at suspicious areas as highlighted by the MRI. Sometimes if the biopsy is done first it can miss bits and give a false result, so in terms of this aspect it may be better.

However the wait is awful and we have all been there and understand how you feel. I am sorry to see that you are here and with such a young husband too, although we are seeing a lot of young men on the site at the moment.

Getting the right diagnosis in the first place is vital though, if you are to get the best treatment plan.

In terms of the aches and pains, this may or may not be related, but you have done the right thing by getting it checked out, as the sooner these things are tackled the more chance of successful treatment.

I am sorry that this is a little rushed as I have a screaming toddler here slapping at the keyboard.....

 

all the best

 

Alison

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 20:42

Hi Trish,
I had an MRI prior to a biopsy for the reason you were given.
Seems eminently sensible as the Prostate is going to look rather battered after a biopsy.
Imagine how your thumb would look after someone had shoved a load of pins in it.

A secondary benefit was my original biopsy was planned to be rectal. After the scan the team was aware that the Cancer was presenting to the front of the Prostate capsule which ment a rectal biopsy would have probably missed the main core of cancer.

So all good and no drawbacks that I can think of!

All the best

Kevin

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 20:51
Dear Alison,

Thank you so much for taking time to reply to my post - even with a busy little toddler in the background😊 Yes I think it's the waiting that is getting me down at the moment and my husband would agree we just need to know one way or another so we can see where we go next. We have 2 sons age 19 and 15 so it's very difficult keeping this from them but of course we wouldn't dream of telling them anything until/if my husband is diagnosed.

I read your profile and wish you and your husband all the best in your treatment, it can't be easy with little ones but I'm sure you both get great joy from the never ending cuddles they give.

Thanks,

Trish

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 20:56
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your reply, sounds quite sensible then! Only thing is the wait for us, it's through BUPA and it will be 10 days before we visit urologist for MRI result and then a biopsy will have to be arranged - seems to be really dragging😠

Thanks and good luck,

Trish

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 21:05

Hi Trish,
Sorry to say that the waiting is the worst part of the process.
Just try and take a chill pill if you can :)
Try not to make 1+1=3
Don't read everything into this, there are many reasons for other aches and pains.
Easy to say, harder to do....

Thinking of you both


Kevin

Edit - forgot to add, if you click on our names on the right of our pictures many of us have put up our biography in the profile area which you can view.

Have a look around and how things have worked out for others.

Edited by member 18 Nov 2014 at 21:09  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 21:31
Hi Kevin,

I know I'm a born worrier! I have been looking at the profiles and it has been really helpful.

Trish

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 21:45

I went for my biopsy, and they wouldn't do it as I hadn't had the scan. So I went for the scan, was told it looked OK, but PCa was found in 1/12 samples. The scan may show something which hleps the medics, but there again....

This is a worrying time, but worry will not change anything. Try and get on with your lives as best you can. Easier said than done, I know.

Stay Calm And Carry On.
User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 22:11
Hi Sixtwo,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I know easier said than done 😕 I will have to learn to be more patient you just want to know everything at once.

Good luck with your journey.

Trish

User
Posted 18 Nov 2014 at 22:42
Hi Trish, the waiting is the worst so many things you can imagine up and the iternet makes things worse at this stage.

Try and sit on your hands, I know that is hard but until you get the full picture you can't really make informed descisions.

The good news is that you have all the tests lined up either privately or through the NHS so you should have a full picture in the next week or so.

This disease defies all of us in its predictabilty no two men seem to be the same.

Try and do any research you can in the background so that you can be informed and supportive. Download the toolkit from this website but at the same time do not read everything you see on the internet as gospel and totally applicable to your man.

keep posting there is always someone here that can help

xx

Mo

User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 06:40
Hi Mo,

I have seen lots of posts from you and you are always so helpful, I will download the toolkit at work today also maybe get some questions written down for the scan results on Wednesday 26th.

Many thanks,

Trish xx

User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 10:32

Hi Trish

My apologies for what has turned into a very long post.

Your husband has potentially more than one cause for his problems and it is essential that these are all logically investigated.  It seems that this is, to a large extent, happening.

One has to say that rectal bleeding in a youngish man should always be taken seriously, but is by no means always due to cancer.  Whilst he may have a polyp, this may well turn out to be totally benign and basically has given him 'a nosebleed through the rectum'.  But a colonoscopy and proper biopsy are the next logical step.  Is there any family history of polyps in the bowel - this can be a significant factor - but I am sure your gastro person has been through this already.

It is not uncommon for a man to initially go to his doctor with symptoms of erectile dysfunction and then to find there is a diagnosis of PCa.  Sadly, not all GPs think about doing a PSA test in this situation.

His PSA of 3.8 is undoubtedly on the high side for a man of his age.  There is a school of thought that PSA screening should take place in all men at the age of 40 - at this age the 'background noise' of normal prostate enlargement is almost zero so that this influence on PSA levels is minimised.  A raised level at this age may not be indicative of the presence of PCa but might indicate the men in whom closer surveillance might be needed in the future.  These levels of PSA are undoubtedly the ones which give the greatest trouble as they are never, in themselves, diagnostic of PCA.  It is one of the major arguments against a national screening campaign for PCa using the PSA test alone.

A proper biopsy is obviously needed for your husband, and doing the MRI scan before this is a very sensible thing.  Biopsy alters the MRI image of the prostate and can confuse the interpretation.  What is not clear from your post is what sort of MRI has been done.  Was this of the whole abdomen, including the spine (because of his back and boney pain) or just of the prostate.  Conventional MRI scanning of the prostate is not that good at identifying PCa within the gland - the technique is just not sensitive enough.  It is mainly used for identifying spread to the lymph nodes within the abdominal cavity and to aid in assessing the overall classification of the aggressiveness of the disease.

What might be worth considering here is further more sensitive MRI scanning and other investigations for PCa.  Many such investigations are not easily available on the NHS in all parts of the country.  However, it seems that you may be able to organise this through your private health insurance.  Your profile also suggests you come from the London area where there is a plethora of private places offering the investigations.

I would strongly suggest it is worth discussing with your urologist that a more sophisticated MRI scan is done - assuming this is not what has already been done.  It is known as a 'multi-parametric MRI scan'.  It needs a more powerful scanner and upgraded software than many NHS hospitals have.  You also need a radiologist with experience in interpreting these scans.  This scan can image the prostate itself much better than the normal scan and can localise much smaller areas of potential cancer within the gland.  This MUST be done prior to any biopsy as the biopsy procedure will significantly alter the images of the gland.  It can also identify more accurately than trans-rectal ultrasound the areas of prostate that should be biopsied.  Some hospitals now use this investigation virtually routinely prior to biopsy and have significantly reduced their biopsy rates because of thei.  I think one of the leading hospitals here is Kings College Hospital.

Other potentially useful tests are to repeat the PSA but to measure the ratio of ‘free’ to total’ PSA  in the blood.  PSA exists in 2 forms – one is found attached to proteins in the blood, the other is just found ‘floating freely’ in the blood.  The normal ratio of these tends to be reversed in PCa.  This estimation is not difficult to do, bit is not routinely requested on PSA testing. The other test is a urine test – PCA3.  This measures the level of Prostate Cancer Antigen-3 which is produced by cancer cells and is the excreted in the urine.  It is obviously high in most men with PCa (but one has to say not ALL men with PCa).  On their own, neither of these is definitively diagnostic, but may help greatly when looked at alongside all other investigations.

One other fact you do not mention is whether there is any family history on PCa in your husband’s family – father, grandfather, brother etc.  As I am sure you know PCa has strong familial links and is 3 times more common if there is a previous family history.  Should your husband be positively diagnosed (and let us hope and pray that this all turns out to be a false alarm), then it is very important that his close male relatives are given appropriate advice and testing.  It is also becoming recognised that some of the genetic abnormalities often associated with PCa are similar to those found in breast cancer – particularly the BRAC 1 gene.  A strong history of breast cancer in close female relatives can also be found in some men with PCa.  Not at all diagnostic, but yet another peripheral factor that should be considered.

So, the bottom line here is to hang in there and don’t be afraid to discuss other potential tests prior to a biopsy.  I know that you will both want answers ASAP, but it will pay dividends in the end to do all of the right investigations in the right order.

Should the diagnosis come back as being positive then there will be a whole range of potential treatments.  It can be confusing initially.  Good advice can be obtained from the helpline at PCUK.  Equally, do find out if there is a Prostate Cancer Support Group in your area.  PCUK should have an up to date list, or similar information can be found from what was originally called the Prostate Cancer Support Federation (now re-branded as ‘TACKLE prostate cancer’). – www.tackleprostate.org     I am Chairman of the Reading Prostate Cancer Support Group (www.rpcsg.org.uk)  and one of our main aims is to provide advice and support about PCa.  We often have men who come to the meetings prior to their treatment or seek advice on the phone.  Talking to someone who has been through the same experience is enormously useful.  I know this from my own personal experience.  Patients now have to be given ‘choice’ in their treatment options – but how does one choose without having some good prior information.  Equally it is important to know how people have coped with the 2 major post-treatment problems – incontinence and impotence.  Whilst these are common problems, they are by no means always present.  But both do gain more importance the younger one is at diagnosis.  Pre-treatment discussion about post-treatment strategies can be very helpful.  Fore-warned is always fore-armed.

I do apologise at the length of this post, but I do think it is essential that we all share adequate and appropriate information.

Please do remember that treatment for PCa is rapidly advancing.  It is by no means a death sentence.  Like breast cancer, it has a wide range of aggressiveness. Caught early, the outcomes can be stunningly good with the appropriate treatment.  I am now 7 years down the line – diagnosed aged 59.  Many of our members are further on that that.

I do know how much of a strain this must be on you both at the moment, particularly with a young family.  Quite rightly, you do not want to tell then anything until you know more definitive details.  Do talk with others if you can.  The pair of you will need some support through this.  The PCUK helpline is always there.  Support Groups are there. Do beware of uncontrolled message boards which at best can be ‘communal whingeing’ and at worst positively destructive.

Steve Allen

 

User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 18:01
Hi Steve,

Thanks for your detailed reply and your knowledge hugely helpful, yes my Husbands dad had Prostate cancer also he is Carribbean which is also worrying as I know the statistics about Black men. There is no history of bowel problems but the doctor found a polyp there hence sending him for a colonoscopy. Our urologist is one of the best in London as we are lucky enough to have BUPA and so far he is giving us lots of info and is very thorough, just a pity he is away this week so we have to wait for MRI results.

In addition our Urologists NHS base is Kings College Hospital and when we went for our MRI he did say it was one of the best MRI Scanners available so if there is anything it will be found.

Again thanks so much for your reply and your PM.

Best wishes,

Trish

Edited by member 19 Nov 2014 at 19:04  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 18:37

What a fantastically helpful message Steve, I am sure that others will agree.

Alison

User
Posted 19 Nov 2014 at 20:02

I agree that was a great answer Steve.....now about this poorly finger :)

User
Posted 20 Nov 2014 at 22:24

I disagree. I think talk of multi-parametric tests and free PSA to someone only just starting to grapple with the world of the prostate would frighten some people out of their wits and suggesting delaying the biopsy seems crazy in this particular case. Usually, we try to keep things simple for new members and those in the pre-diagnosis stage.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 23 Nov 2014 at 10:37

Hi to all,

I joined this forum to ask about the chances of having an MRI before a biopsy so this thread is ideal.

I've been suffering from pain across the front of my stomach and back plus I've been having difficulty passing water. I had a PSA blood test on Thursday and am awaiting the results. If my PSA result is high I'd prefer an MRI first, partly because I am allergic to some drugs I already know about e.g. penicillin, septrin etc. and no doubt lots more that I don't yet know about. I really don't like the idea of a biopsy that could cause an infection. 

My post might seem a bit negative but I am wondering if I have had a problem for a some time. I'm early 50's and did ask for a PSA about 5 years ago when I realised I had similar symptoms to a friend diagnosed with prostate cancer but my doctor was averse to me taking the test. This was due to the false positives that might have led to an unnecessary biopsy. My friend was  much older. I'm not in panic mode, just trying to think things through logically and what's best for me. 

Is it usual procedure to have an MRI first on the NHS or is it something you have to fight for? If for some I was told I couldn't have one, is it easy to have one done privately, or does that complicate things and leave you stuck in no man's land? Between different sides, neither fighting your corner. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

User
Posted 23 Nov 2014 at 17:37
Hi,

It would depend if you have private health insurance or not, we have bupa so I do think that's why. I don't know but maybe your consultant will decide to do an mri on the NHS first, I do know it would be very expensive to do it privately if you don't have insurance.

My husband gets his results Wednesday so I will update then.

Good luck,

Trish

User
Posted 23 Nov 2014 at 19:03

It's a sin,
It is possible to have an MRI first - some hospitals are doing this routinely now and there is no reason not to ask about the possibility. However, I wonder if your thought process is quite clear? What rationale for asking for scan first? If it is in your mind that the scan might show all is well and then avoid the need for biopsy, think again.

Scans are not perfect and can miss tiny clusters or those that are unusual in some way - according to my husband's scan he had the healthiest of prostates but when it was removed the cancer was throughout the entire gland and into his bladder. The MRI is best used to help determine which areas of the prostate to target in the biopsy.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 25 Nov 2014 at 13:20

Just some experience which might be of interest.

My diagnosis of PCa have been produced purely on the histology of a sample taken during a TURP procedure together with a combined MRI scan plus MRI Spectroscopy (overall that took an hour).  I have not had a needle biopsy and there are no plans for me to have one (am being treated now with 7 months HT then RT).

The point I am trying to make is that I understand a standard MRI scan may not pick up PCa, in many situations.  However, when the MRI scan is done together with an MRI Spectroscopy, the latter does allow chemical signatures of cancer cells to be identified.  It seems to me that the MRI scan plus MRI Spectroscopy is far superior to an ordinary MRI scan and may obviate the need for needle biopsies in future, I gather?  

I don't know if this is the same as multi-parametric MRI, that has already been mentioned, though.

User
Posted 25 Nov 2014 at 16:16

Thanks for the replies.

I now have my PSA result and it's 6.3 with my first visit to a Urologist scheduled for Friday.

 

User
Posted 26 Nov 2014 at 10:50
Hi All,

We had good news today, there was no obvious cancer on the MRI. Protate is enlarged and some small abnormalities on outer lobes but he feels it is inflammation. He has decided to put Stuart on a 2 month course of alpha blockers before checking his PSA again and if still raised he will then do a biopsy. He is concerned that his Kidney function is low so also referred to a Kidney specialist so hopefully that will be OK.

Thanks,

Trish

User
Posted 26 Nov 2014 at 23:13

Not sure I would be thrilled with this outcome Trish - what was the consultant's view about the symptoms such as pain and ED?

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Nov 2014 at 07:25
Hi Lyn,

He said these symptoms could be caused by enlarged prostate, he didn't say it wasn't cancer but feels it's more likely to be BPH hence going down the Alpha Blockers route first and then doing next PSA at end of January.He then said if still raised he would do a Biopsy possibly a Template one.

Hopefully this is not delaying the inevitable.

Thanks

User
Posted 28 Nov 2014 at 01:15

I hope the tablets work - my husband was on them from the age of 35. I just think that your OH is too young for ED to be considered a side issue.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 05 Feb 2015 at 19:39
Hi All, It's been a while but as usual I have been lurking on the forum every day!nAfter 2 months on Alpha Blockers (which didn't really help with symptoms) Stuart had his latest PSA results which were 3.5 (1st 3.33 and 2nd 3.82), his consultant was hoping it would have gone down to 1.5 if it was BPH so today he suggested the Template Biopsy as the next step. He is still having the back pain and toilet problems as well as the ED so I am relieved if a little scared that they are doing a Template Biopsy, at least hopefully we get an answer one way or another. Stuart is gone very quiet and has just gone for a pint to be on his own for a while not sure how he is going to deal with it if he is diagnosed with PCA, I have already lost a stone with worry as it's been such a long few months. Has anyone on here had a Template Biopsy, what were your experiences of it?

Thanks,

Trish

User
Posted 05 Feb 2015 at 21:16

Hi I'm just new.
Interesting treat as going now just through this. I must agree with all I read since 2011, TRUS Biopsies bring so many unknowns, so I support the 3T MRI. This whole PSA thing is a nightmare as even high readings bring no certainty. Had PSA, PSA Free, PCA3 tests, DRE's, MRI's with all in "equivocal" grey area, neither one nor the other. Even current MRI is score 8 and yet again can be inflammation or potential cancer. The one advantage I see is at least with MRI Guided Biopsy they can target exact area and know with more certainty. What happens with this information then is unknown, either to live with and do nothing as like most people live with....stress over many treatments or wait for improvements or risk and have some closure, this is the more worry. The only benefit I see from all these years is identifying any fast growing tumours and to mitigate this risk versus the low risk and then making decisions.
I pray and hope that the biopsy is the 80% benign and inflamed version.
Dean

My journey started in 2007, then PSA was 1.40
2009 Dec, had 4 hernias repaired which is only main change.
In 2010 during regular checks it was 3.30 which was somewhat high for my age. PSAFree not taken.
2011 it was higher 5.30 and Free was 27%
3T MRI in 2011 no timor but transition zone was low 2. MRI Volume 27
2011/12 was in the 3.0's range No PSAFree taken
2013 was 5 tests in 4.0's as high as 5.19 but PSA Free in 13-15% range which was worry.
2014 was low 4.0's and also 3.64 but PSA Free in 12% area
ALL DRE's Normal. PCA3 in 2011 was 27 which was told is good. 3T MRI no timor.
ALL within GREY ZONE which is very hard to have clear outcome.

Jan 2015 PSA was 4.04 and Free Ratio 13%
Dr concerned ONLY by low PSA Free
Redid 3T MRI in Jan 2015
Results of 3T was "equivocal" PI-RADS score of 8 which implies 19% chance of timor. Score was due to change compare from 2011 benchmark.
MRI Targeted Biopsy planned March 2015

User
Posted 05 Feb 2015 at 21:33
Hi Dean,

You are on such a long journey since 2007, I take my hat off to you coping with this uncertainty for such a long time. I am not sure we would and I can speak for my husband too as he just read your post. Good luck with your Biopsy in March and I hope it is the inflamed version too. Can I ask your age? My husband turned 46 in January so this is why I'm so worried about his PSA level.

Thanks,

Trish

User
Posted 06 Feb 2015 at 08:17

Trish, 53 now, 54 this year, born 1961. Yes the road is so long, the problem is do we need to know when the PSA testing is so uncertain. Biopsies also hit and miss. The only true benefit I see is to identify fast growing, but other than this, the rest is a nightmare. Even my Urologist told me he tested some years ago because he should but then he has not since, maybe this is explaining the dilmer. The AS wait and see, is also worry as then with so many developments there could find cure....its like trying to guess which way the currency exchange will go when sending money....not been very good at this either. In part I agree with many, have it removed....then less stress of all these tests not knowing. I read about one guy that had 5 biopsies, no cancer, then he told come back in 1-2 years, which he did and just forgot about. Then PSA rasied so much, not he is Stage 2 and stuggling, so both the Biospies and PSA gave false negatives, so this is my main worry. The good thing I see at this stage is maybe not multiple biopsies or thinking it cleared but it not, at least they have MRI to guide and with 81% probability that its inflamation, which is what we hope. The other issue, is information overload and for each bad there is good, however, just like another site called Yana....the people on are all PCa, so you have more of the outcome stories rather than the good news stories so people presume more the negative, so I try to use information for what it is knowing there are millions of men without any issues v ones with issues......although this is sometimes also hard when your that person and you make the decision. Lets hope for a breakthough and stay positive. Ciao Dean

User
Posted 06 Feb 2015 at 09:32

Dean, very few men on here have had the benefit of 3T MRI and apart from you and Devonlad I can only think of two others who have ever referred to their IPSS.

You are right that PSA is not always a reliable indicator, and our urologist refers to biopsy as being like sticking a needle into a fruit cake and hoping to spear a cherry. At least with guided biopsy, you know whether the cherries are around the edges or in the middle. However, scans are not perfect either - my husband's scan was clear so if he hadn't had a positive biopsy first he would have assumed all was okay - as it turned out, the cancer had already spread to his bladder neck.

Active surveillance is a good choice for some men for all sorts of reasons as is close monitoring for men with indicators but frequent negative tests. You could perhaps read Rogcal's profile as he has been in your situation for many, many years now.

Your interpretation that guided MRI in some way reduces or minimises side effects is I think a misunderstanding. The risk of infection is the same, plus you may have the additional risk of general anaesthetic to contend with.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 07 Feb 2015 at 14:32

Thanks for your pm Skyfox - it seems that the MRI concludes that you are likely to have prostatitis or some other infection but has identified some specific areas to target during the biopsy, including the TZ, just to be sure. Timor isn't a word, I don't think so if it was included on your results report I imagine it was a typo for tumour.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 07 Feb 2015 at 16:54

Hi Lyn,

I have six monthly check-ups at the Royal Marsden and I always complete an IPSS form. I'm not sure what they do with the data. Must ask the next time I'm there.

User
Posted 08 Feb 2015 at 18:57
Hi all. I've just started to get involved with the converstations. My PSA was 8 last summer and urologist suggested TRUS biopsy. I had done a bit of research on the subject and I have to say I was NOT convinced. The science seemed too flakey. So I declined. Instead I did some more research and discovered the PROMIS clinical trial (http://www.ctu.mrc.ac.uk/our_research/research_areas/cancer/studies/promis/ ) . This is collecting data to determine if MRI is a reliable diagnostic tool for prostate cancer. It involves having an MRI first, followed by both TRUS and Template biopsies. I asked my GP to ask if I could be accepted onto the trial, which I was and had MRI in October last year and biopsies in November. My results in January indicated that MRI had identified two areas of possible cancer. The TRUS biopsies were all clear. Template biopsies indicated cancer 3+4. While the Template biopsies were not guided or targeted by the MRI results (the trial required the results from the three procedures to be kept independant of each other) I'm glad I got onto this trial and obtained an accurate diagnosis, which I don't think I would have got from a TRUS biopsy alone. I think the PROMIS trial finishes later this year with the results some time later. After my experience, I hope MRI is the first diagnostic tool rather than TRUS biopsy. But like all things NHS I guess it comes down to cost.
 
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