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Tamoxifen and survival

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User
Posted 22 Jan 2015 at 20:57

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but it is news too good to miss posting, IMHO.


I am currently on a classroom based instructional course and had occasion to have a word with the tutor  about my toilet needs for a pending exam.  He mentioned that he too had need of a toilet regularly, and had had an issue with PCa.  He has been on Tamoxifen for about 10 years and is doing well and all clear thus far.


So, anyone on Tamoxifen, wow, potentially excellent news for you all.


ATB


Dave

User
Posted 23 Jan 2015 at 09:32
Dave
it is my understanding that Tamoxifen is used extensively to treat breast cancer in both Women and Men, just recently research is showing that it may even be used as a preventative drug for those at highest risk of developing breast cancer. Its use for Men with Prostate Cancer is not a primary line of treatment but as a secondary to prevent or reduce the side effects many men get on HT of breast tenderness and swelling. However the way it works is the thing that has led to the development of drugs like Abiraterone and Enzalutamide.

The theory of this was covered in the course I just did with future learn at Bath University "Inside cancer how Genes influence Cancer development"

There are many more drugs in the pipeline that "Target" a specific genetic process. Further research is also being done to look at the genetic map of individual cancer sufferers and from that literally producing bespoke treatments. In some cases it has been discovered that drugs used to treat completely unrelated cancers have fantastic results on patients if the genetic mapping leads the physician down that route. The exciting thing IMHO for this is that it will remove the need for treatment overkill and reduce unnecessary side effects etc.
I am completely in awe of the research scientists and physicians who dedicate their lives to finding cures and treatments for "dread"diseases.

Hope your exam goes well, see you soon
xx
Mandy
User
Posted 22 Jan 2015 at 20:57

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but it is news too good to miss posting, IMHO.


I am currently on a classroom based instructional course and had occasion to have a word with the tutor  about my toilet needs for a pending exam.  He mentioned that he too had need of a toilet regularly, and had had an issue with PCa.  He has been on Tamoxifen for about 10 years and is doing well and all clear thus far.


So, anyone on Tamoxifen, wow, potentially excellent news for you all.


ATB


Dave

User
Posted 23 Jan 2015 at 14:28

This is nothing to do with new drugs but I just wanted to say Mick must be so proud of you Mandy.


BFN


Julie X

NEVER LAUGH AT A LIVE DRAGON
User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 11:52
All Tamoxifen does is reduce the risk of male breasts, I think
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 13:14

I was offered tamoxifen to control the growth of man boobs. Then they decided against it because of the risk of blood clots, given my heart condition. 

User
Posted 08 Dec 2018 at 03:29

I actually did some follow up research, and saw some interesting research articles that support the effect of tamoxifen. Most were from Pub Med. While testosterone (actually DHT) was thought to be the main culprit, it seems that estrogen(s) and their modulation play a role. The thing that amazed me the most was my reduction in PSA, and there seems to be enough evidence to warrant further research. Tamoxifen seems to have a lot of effects on the body, relating to cardiovascular, prostate, breast, and even pancreas.


 


Cardiovascular:


https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/01.cir.103.11.1497?fbclid=IwAR2cAearcw4wIJnIl-XAbOuZ16hhfSmsod5sxlRuBDBuNQ4j4gD8iJq8k9M




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16101186?fbclid=IwAR0MBQ9M3Qqqwor9zP0sAgJ4HeZ3O6sX4JTmG3ea7yhSkvhV_IMm3_QNlIw


Benefit for Type 1 diabetes:


http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/67/Supplement_1/2155-P 


Supporting evidence for possible benefit to those suffering with enlarged prostate

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3179830/


 


Maybe I'm just imagining the benefit, but it's helped me beyond just a placebo effect.

Edited by member 08 Dec 2018 at 03:36  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 08 Dec 2018 at 21:31

When my Dr. saw my PSA result he was pleased. When I told  him I was taking tamoxifen, he dropped me from the practice. I printed out articles (I'm a person who understands this stuff (mostly) when I read it, and prefer it to just testimony). Being 62 and having a low free testosterone, I was looking for a safe way to enhance that. I thought taking steroids directly to be too risky. Also, it had been known to increase prostate problems. It was bodybuilding sites that led me to tamoxifen (Nolvadex). Clomid and Tamoxifen are two of the main ones. They are both called SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). They act in the brain to modulate sex hormones through the pituitary. Further research indicated that an anti-breast cancer drug might also slow prostate growth by blocking estrogen. Prior to that DHT was thought to be the primary culprit. Anyway, it seemed to be logical to try this med: it can both boost testosterone AND block dangerous estrogen. And it didn't seem to have serious side effects for most. I didn't imagine it lowering my PSA (from 3.75 to 1.58). I don't think I was imagining the reduction in irritation from BPH symptoms either. It's also being use in phase 2 trials against a certain type of prostate cancer! Some may ask why I didn't go for a more permanent procedure like surgery. Sexual function is the main answer, especially retrograde ejaculation. Also, I didn't like taking alpha blockers, and my insurance didn't cover daily Cialis. Wanted to share my experience here to possibly help others, since I saw the anti prostate cancer. I've taken the time, not because I'm being paid, but to try to help others. I suppose I'm a guinea pig of sorts, but I'm glad I found this med. As always, it's best to ask your doc first. For now, I'm taking 10mg/day. May reduce it to 5mg to see if I still get the beneficial effects.


 


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16101186

Edited by member 08 Dec 2018 at 21:33  | Reason: Not specified

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User
Posted 23 Jan 2015 at 09:32
Dave
it is my understanding that Tamoxifen is used extensively to treat breast cancer in both Women and Men, just recently research is showing that it may even be used as a preventative drug for those at highest risk of developing breast cancer. Its use for Men with Prostate Cancer is not a primary line of treatment but as a secondary to prevent or reduce the side effects many men get on HT of breast tenderness and swelling. However the way it works is the thing that has led to the development of drugs like Abiraterone and Enzalutamide.

The theory of this was covered in the course I just did with future learn at Bath University "Inside cancer how Genes influence Cancer development"

There are many more drugs in the pipeline that "Target" a specific genetic process. Further research is also being done to look at the genetic map of individual cancer sufferers and from that literally producing bespoke treatments. In some cases it has been discovered that drugs used to treat completely unrelated cancers have fantastic results on patients if the genetic mapping leads the physician down that route. The exciting thing IMHO for this is that it will remove the need for treatment overkill and reduce unnecessary side effects etc.
I am completely in awe of the research scientists and physicians who dedicate their lives to finding cures and treatments for "dread"diseases.

Hope your exam goes well, see you soon
xx
Mandy
User
Posted 23 Jan 2015 at 14:28

This is nothing to do with new drugs but I just wanted to say Mick must be so proud of you Mandy.


BFN


Julie X

NEVER LAUGH AT A LIVE DRAGON
User
Posted 23 Jan 2015 at 17:56
Aww Julie that was quite an emotional statement
have your puppies just arrived? bless
xx
Mandy Mo
User
Posted 25 Jan 2015 at 10:11
John is on Tamaoxifen due to the rather large Moobs he has developed whilst of Stillbestrill. I'd love to think it had other, helpful properties too.

Best regards
Allisom
User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 08:53

I have BPH, and after doing some reading, I was curious of Tamoxifen would help with my problem. I started with 10 mg/day, and soon after I noticed an improvement in urinary function, especially getting up much less at night to urinate. During my annual medical exam, my PSA dropped a full 2 points! My overall health seemed to improve as well. For me, this seems like a miracle med. No side effects to date.

User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 09:35
As has been said, Tamoxifen doesn't have any curative effects when it comes to PCa. It's prescribed purely to reduce the side-effects of HT.

Chris
User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 11:30

Interesting post, thank you for the information Dave and Mandy.


I am presuming that the side effects that Tamoxifen helps with are the physical ones not the mental ones ( ie depression , anxiety and insomnia or even the dreaded ED )


Very interesting though.


Phil

User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 11:52
All Tamoxifen does is reduce the risk of male breasts, I think
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 12:06

Hi Lyn , I saw that TimTem says It may helped with his BPH. So you live in hope 😊.


Phil

User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 13:14

I was offered tamoxifen to control the growth of man boobs. Then they decided against it because of the risk of blood clots, given my heart condition. 

User
Posted 07 Dec 2018 at 15:10

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member


Hi Lyn , I saw that TimTem says It may helped with his BPH. So you live in hope 😊.


Phil



It's human nature to assume that if one event follows another, they have a causal connection ("I washed the car and then it rained"), but it ain't necessarily true .


Cheers,


Chris

User
Posted 08 Dec 2018 at 03:29

I actually did some follow up research, and saw some interesting research articles that support the effect of tamoxifen. Most were from Pub Med. While testosterone (actually DHT) was thought to be the main culprit, it seems that estrogen(s) and their modulation play a role. The thing that amazed me the most was my reduction in PSA, and there seems to be enough evidence to warrant further research. Tamoxifen seems to have a lot of effects on the body, relating to cardiovascular, prostate, breast, and even pancreas.


 


Cardiovascular:


https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/01.cir.103.11.1497?fbclid=IwAR2cAearcw4wIJnIl-XAbOuZ16hhfSmsod5sxlRuBDBuNQ4j4gD8iJq8k9M




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16101186?fbclid=IwAR0MBQ9M3Qqqwor9zP0sAgJ4HeZ3O6sX4JTmG3ea7yhSkvhV_IMm3_QNlIw


Benefit for Type 1 diabetes:


http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/67/Supplement_1/2155-P 


Supporting evidence for possible benefit to those suffering with enlarged prostate

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3179830/


 


Maybe I'm just imagining the benefit, but it's helped me beyond just a placebo effect.

Edited by member 08 Dec 2018 at 03:36  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 08 Dec 2018 at 10:12
Are you buying it privately? Are you in the UK?
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 08 Dec 2018 at 21:31

When my Dr. saw my PSA result he was pleased. When I told  him I was taking tamoxifen, he dropped me from the practice. I printed out articles (I'm a person who understands this stuff (mostly) when I read it, and prefer it to just testimony). Being 62 and having a low free testosterone, I was looking for a safe way to enhance that. I thought taking steroids directly to be too risky. Also, it had been known to increase prostate problems. It was bodybuilding sites that led me to tamoxifen (Nolvadex). Clomid and Tamoxifen are two of the main ones. They are both called SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). They act in the brain to modulate sex hormones through the pituitary. Further research indicated that an anti-breast cancer drug might also slow prostate growth by blocking estrogen. Prior to that DHT was thought to be the primary culprit. Anyway, it seemed to be logical to try this med: it can both boost testosterone AND block dangerous estrogen. And it didn't seem to have serious side effects for most. I didn't imagine it lowering my PSA (from 3.75 to 1.58). I don't think I was imagining the reduction in irritation from BPH symptoms either. It's also being use in phase 2 trials against a certain type of prostate cancer! Some may ask why I didn't go for a more permanent procedure like surgery. Sexual function is the main answer, especially retrograde ejaculation. Also, I didn't like taking alpha blockers, and my insurance didn't cover daily Cialis. Wanted to share my experience here to possibly help others, since I saw the anti prostate cancer. I've taken the time, not because I'm being paid, but to try to help others. I suppose I'm a guinea pig of sorts, but I'm glad I found this med. As always, it's best to ask your doc first. For now, I'm taking 10mg/day. May reduce it to 5mg to see if I still get the beneficial effects.


 


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16101186

Edited by member 08 Dec 2018 at 21:33  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 08 Dec 2018 at 21:38

I wish you all the best with your route. Please keep us posted on the rest of your journey. It is fascinating to follow.


Phil

User
Posted 09 Dec 2018 at 00:27
Cialis doesn't do anything to help BPH and steroids aren't known for this quality either so I am confused now. You are taking tamoxifen purchased without a prescription to help BPH for which you had been offered TURP?
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 09 Dec 2018 at 01:23

No need for confusion. Cialis and other ED drugs seem to help through inhibiting Phosphodiesterase-5:


"Tadalafil (Cialis) has been approved for the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). The phosphodiesterase 5 inhibitor is thought to relieve BPH symptoms by relaxing smooth muscle and increasing blood flow to the bladder, prostate and urethra."


So here you are misinformed.


I said Testosterone in steroid form is not advised for BPH sufferers, while estrogen inhibition may have benefit. Low free testosterone is an issue for some older men; that is a different condition though. SERMs may be a better alternative, especially Tamoxifen.


Not meaning to be overly technical, but some understanding of how drugs work is helpful.


 


 

User
Posted 09 Dec 2018 at 02:16

No, the research paper you seem to be quoting from was a literature review in 2011 of studies undertaken in the 1980s and 90s - the prescribing of tamoxifen for BPH was not approved after 2011. NICE guidance on Cialis as a treatment for BPH is that it is unlikely to work but might be worth trying if alpha-blockers are failing; they leave it up to CCGs to decide whether they are willing to approve it in their areas. There are many areas of England where the CCG will not fund daily Cialis so you were very fortunate to be offered it. What I don’t understand is why you would prefer taking an oestrogen (with unpleasant side effects) to Cialis (with not so unpleasant side effects)? And whether you are buying the tamoxifen off-script?


 


The trial of tamoxifen in hormone independent PCa was in 2005 and did not go any further. 


 


 

Edited by member 09 Dec 2018 at 02:26  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 09 Dec 2018 at 05:35

There are no unpleasant side effects for me, and Tamoxifen is an anti-estrogen, actually that's not quite true (it seems to more selective). You are correct, though, no medicine works the same for everyone.


"While Tamoxifen is commonly known as an anti-estrogen, this is not an accurate description of its clinical activity. In actual fact, Tamoxifen boasts both estrogenic and anti-estrogenic properties depending on the target tissue. Due to this dual action, Tamoxifen is better described with the term selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM)." The effects on the prostate, over all, seem to be beneficial.


If you happen to have moderate to severe BPH, you know that any relief is welcome. While, usually not fatal in and of itself, it does lower your quality of life. I'm in  the Philippines and can get just about anything OTC. The tamoxifen is branded and reasonably priced. Presently not taking Cialis, but could still get reasonably priced Cialis from Cipla, India. 


The selective action on the prostate is quite exciting, especially with the potential ability to shrink the gland and lower PSA (an indication that it is having a beneficial affect). It wouldn't surprise me if researchers find it lowers the risk of prostate cancer, as well as other types, just like it does breast cancer. The financial incentive to conduct more research is likely limited because it's a relatively inexpensive medicine. Sorry, there's a bit of cynisism here due to what pharmacutical companies do in America (my home county of origin).


 


 

 
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