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What to do now??

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 09:46
I haven't posted for a long time on this forum but I read most threads weekly and pass on info to my husband Paul.

Short history: Paul had his prostrate removed in August 2014 by keyhole surgery as the Da Vinci robot hadn't yet become available in South Wales. It was the following year that the Urologist at Morriston Hospital was trained to use it.

On diagnosis Paul's PSA was 5.3 and Gleeson score was 7. On histology he went from 3+4 to 4+3. We were told cancer was contained in the capsule and Paul did have some nerve sparing. Bone scan clear which was wonderful news.

Now, first 2 PSA's were undetectable and the 3rd one was 0.4 which was a real blow, we saw the oncologist at Velindra Hospital Cardiff and he said he would like Paul to wait to go onto a trial where he would have a pet scan and then RT. We were to continue whilst waiting for the trial to have 3 monthly PSA tests. The next PSA came in at 0.3 which even though down one point we were thrilled as it was not rising. We realised at this time that the trial was taking longer to commence but our oncologist said there was no urgency for Paul. Next PSA test 0.4 again and the last one taken 2 weeks ago back down to 0.3. We asked to see the oncologist and saw him last week, now this is where we are really confused and don't know what we should do.

Oncologist said the trial was cancelled so that was the end of that :( he said Paul could just go on active surveillance as his PSA was not rising over 0.4 and hadn't in 18 months or he could start a course of RT. We of course know all the side effects of RT and I feel so sorry for my husband to go through this when his ED and Incontenence is really good, he has worked so hard to get to the level he is right now. On the other hand we know that there are cancer cells on the prostrate bed and they can spread at anytime so is it better for Paul to start RT now when he's fit and well or wait till the PSA rises?

What I find difficult and confusing is different hospitals and oncologists have different opinions as a friend whose husband had his prostrate removed 3 months before Paul and has a PSA of 0.2 has been told by his onco that he will not do anything till the PSA reaches 1 which could take 10 years to do so they told us. The NICE guideline if I'm right (please tell me if I'm wrong) is 0.4 and rising.

Another very confusing thing is I rang the PC advice line and spoke to a lovely nurse and went through all of Paul's history with her. Halfway through our conversation she said ' did you say that Paul's PSA had come down?' I said yes but only by a point then it might go up a point and now it's back down a point. The nurse said she had never heard of the PSA coming down even by a point and then she told me that a very small percentage of men who have benign cells left on the prostrate bed and these will give a PSA reading. I did ask her how could we find out if Paul has these benign cells but she wasn't sure. The oncologist didn't really make much of it coming down a point , this was before we were told of these benign cells. I would really love to ask Lyn all about this for I feel she might be able to throw some light onto this subject.

So here we are.......,, if we go ahead with RT that will commence on the 2nd August or do we continue to leave it and have 3 monthly PSA's tests and see what it does????

We would really appreciate some advice here as we are confused and the time is getting nearer to start the RT. I want the best for my husband and have told him we will work together again just like we did after having the prostectomy, he has to be the one that makes the final decision.

Thank you for reading our journey up to now, any advice would be gratefully received.

Wendy

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 11:50

Hello Wendy,

Sorry to hear that you have this dilemma.
I can't give any advice but if I go over my own situation it might help.

I too had keyhole RP after which my PSA started off with some <0.1 and then started to rise.
My onco keep saying that if it rose again he would consider referring me for salvage RT - he kept deferring it saying " If I send you for salvage RT, they won't do anything as your PSA is too low (0.4 at that time)
I think that was more his perception of the situation rather than a reflection of the true situation. I finally had RT at 0.7, approximately two years after LRP.

Two things I would have done differently (with 20/20 hindsight !)

I would liked to have had salvage RT earlier
I would liked to have had a high definition scan like choline PET/MR prior to RT rather that after it (as I eventually had)

Best wishes,
Dave

Not "Why Me?" but "Why Not Me"?
User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 19:08

Hi Wendy I was offered RT with a undetectable PSA or active surveillance or go on trial as I had positive margins after op,., I did go for the RT which i came through with very little side effects and 18 months on still undetecable.. all the best Andy

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 19:55

Hi Wendy, you are in a bit of a dilemma but all I can say is that the side effects of RT are very short term and within four weeks of ending there were none whatsoever.

During RT there was an urgency to wee a lot due to the filling up of water, there was a bit of tiredness and a little bit of wet f***s in the mornings but other than that the ED problems come with the HT treatment as do the tearfulness, man boobs and tiredness. It all depends on how long the RT is for and if HT is required first and for how long.

Not sure if this helps but it is what has happened to me.

Best wishes, Chris/Woody

Life seems different upside down, take another viewpoint

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 20:10
Hi Wendy

Like the others I can't give you any advice but if you check out my history you will see the progression of my journey so far. I had incontinence problems after the op but got over it and so was reluctant to have to face going through it all again as a result of salvage RT. Once my bladder was under control I decided to go ahead as it offered the possibility of killing off the remaining cells.The RT gave me no real problems as regards side effects but I will not be seeing the onco until 19th September to get an indication of the outcome.

This is just my experience but it might help with your decision making.

All the best

Kevan

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 20:39

Putting it bluntly, your OH is already twice over the point of biochemical recurrence - I don't think it is realistic to think it could be down to benign cells as he has no prostate! The longer you leave it, the less likely it is that RT could be curative - John desperately didn't want to believe he needed salvage treatment but even he had to face up to it at 0.18 and it turned out to be far less trouble than he had imagined. Plus he has remained under 0.1 ever since.

PS I am not sure where you got the 0.4 NICE figure from (it may be the NICE guideline for determining when salvage RT has failed or something like that) - biochemical recurrence post-RP is generally defined as a rise over 0.2 or three successive rises reaching 0.1

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 22:50

Hi Wendy,

As you will have gathered, it comes down to monitoring PSA, perhaps with appropriate scans in the hope that the cancer will not become rampant, at least for some time and only then go for RT, perhaps with HT too or be more proactive and have the RT soon to help forestall potential spread. PCa is unpredictable in that nothing much may develop in the short term but cells can mutate at any time and spread which may mean it is more difficult to eradicate. It's a decision only your husband can make, perhaps with your input.

Barry
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User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 11:50

Hello Wendy,

Sorry to hear that you have this dilemma.
I can't give any advice but if I go over my own situation it might help.

I too had keyhole RP after which my PSA started off with some <0.1 and then started to rise.
My onco keep saying that if it rose again he would consider referring me for salvage RT - he kept deferring it saying " If I send you for salvage RT, they won't do anything as your PSA is too low (0.4 at that time)
I think that was more his perception of the situation rather than a reflection of the true situation. I finally had RT at 0.7, approximately two years after LRP.

Two things I would have done differently (with 20/20 hindsight !)

I would liked to have had salvage RT earlier
I would liked to have had a high definition scan like choline PET/MR prior to RT rather that after it (as I eventually had)

Best wishes,
Dave

Not "Why Me?" but "Why Not Me"?
User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 19:08

Hi Wendy I was offered RT with a undetectable PSA or active surveillance or go on trial as I had positive margins after op,., I did go for the RT which i came through with very little side effects and 18 months on still undetecable.. all the best Andy

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 19:55

Hi Wendy, you are in a bit of a dilemma but all I can say is that the side effects of RT are very short term and within four weeks of ending there were none whatsoever.

During RT there was an urgency to wee a lot due to the filling up of water, there was a bit of tiredness and a little bit of wet f***s in the mornings but other than that the ED problems come with the HT treatment as do the tearfulness, man boobs and tiredness. It all depends on how long the RT is for and if HT is required first and for how long.

Not sure if this helps but it is what has happened to me.

Best wishes, Chris/Woody

Life seems different upside down, take another viewpoint

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 20:10
Hi Wendy

Like the others I can't give you any advice but if you check out my history you will see the progression of my journey so far. I had incontinence problems after the op but got over it and so was reluctant to have to face going through it all again as a result of salvage RT. Once my bladder was under control I decided to go ahead as it offered the possibility of killing off the remaining cells.The RT gave me no real problems as regards side effects but I will not be seeing the onco until 19th September to get an indication of the outcome.

This is just my experience but it might help with your decision making.

All the best

Kevan

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 20:39

Putting it bluntly, your OH is already twice over the point of biochemical recurrence - I don't think it is realistic to think it could be down to benign cells as he has no prostate! The longer you leave it, the less likely it is that RT could be curative - John desperately didn't want to believe he needed salvage treatment but even he had to face up to it at 0.18 and it turned out to be far less trouble than he had imagined. Plus he has remained under 0.1 ever since.

PS I am not sure where you got the 0.4 NICE figure from (it may be the NICE guideline for determining when salvage RT has failed or something like that) - biochemical recurrence post-RP is generally defined as a rise over 0.2 or three successive rises reaching 0.1

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 18 Jul 2016 at 22:50

Hi Wendy,

As you will have gathered, it comes down to monitoring PSA, perhaps with appropriate scans in the hope that the cancer will not become rampant, at least for some time and only then go for RT, perhaps with HT too or be more proactive and have the RT soon to help forestall potential spread. PCa is unpredictable in that nothing much may develop in the short term but cells can mutate at any time and spread which may mean it is more difficult to eradicate. It's a decision only your husband can make, perhaps with your input.

Barry
User
Posted 19 Jul 2016 at 00:56

Thank you all for your advice today. It really has helped us to come to a decision tonight and that is Paul is going to start his RT on the 2nd August. He is having a 6 week course and there has been no mention of hormone therapy at this stage. I really wish he could of had the pet scan before he started his treatment but this isn't an option it seems.

Barry, you are so right PCa is very unpredictable so fingers crossed the RT will stop it spreading.

Lyn, you said your husband John had a PSA of 0.18 before he started salvage treatment? Could you kindly explain what the highest reading is before it gets to 1. something? I don't quite understand this.

Wendy

User
Posted 19 Jul 2016 at 07:38

0.9 is higher than 0.8 and 0.85 would be half way between 0.8 - 0.9

0.18 is in between 0.1 and 0.2 but it is nearer 0.2

If you think of the numbers as pennies in the pound, 0.9 is 90p and 0.18 is 18p - the highest before you get to 1.00 would be 99p or 0.99 unless you are only dealing with silver 10p coins in which case the highest would be 90p or 0.9

It may be that your hospital is only giving you the result to one decimal place (only dealing in silver coins) and that means that they have to round up or down. Generally, the doctors would round a 0.34 down to 0.3 and would round 0.35 up to 0.4 but the score is actually more stable than it looks.

Whichever, your husband's PSA shows that something was left behind so best to get it sorted if you can.

I am a bit surprised that you were given an option of AS, and also that HT hasn't been mentioned - it might be a Welsh thing?

Edited by member 19 Jul 2016 at 07:46  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 19 Jul 2016 at 11:48

Hello Wendy,

I wasn't given hormone treatment prior to RT (nor since)
I think that was more by accident than design.
At the centre where I had RT, I was told by the onco that it was normal there to give hormone treatment before RT but at Addenbrooks at Cambridge they don't.*


*I don't know whether that is true or not or even a generalisation.

Good luck with the RT, It may seem a hard slog now but afterwards you will probably be surprised how quickly the six weeks went!

Dave

Not "Why Me?" but "Why Not Me"?
User
Posted 19 Jul 2016 at 15:07
RT has implications in terms of ED etc however the current PSA is at a level where I would want additional treatment.

Kevin

User
Posted 20 Jul 2016 at 00:43
What has amazed me Lyn is that oncologists seem to have tdifferent ideas for treating PCa as I mentioned my friend's husband who had his prostrate removed 3 months before Paul and now has a psa of 0.2 is doing nothing until it gets to 1

Thanks for explaining how the psa numbering works.

Just wanted to ask you if you thought Paul should have HT with the RT.? His Onco has never mentioned this.

The other thing I forgot to mention was Paul had a MRI a couple of months ago and it was fine.

User
Posted 20 Jul 2016 at 01:09

It isn't for us to give opinions about whehter you should have certain treatments - there must be a reason why the oncologist hasn't suggested HT as it would be fairly common to have a HT / RT combo. Perhaps there are medical reasons or he simply read your reactions and could see that as Paul had recovered so well from the op, he wouldn't be too keen on HT with its libido implications. Or the onco is a complete maverick, who knows.

It is very strange that he has advised your friend so, but on the other hand you weren't in the consultation so only have it second-hand - I often find that John's report of an appointment bears little resemblance to what the doctor actually said. It may be that your friend was reluctant to have more treatment yet, that this is his choice but he hasn't told his family quite the right story so as not to worry them (I am minded of a member here who tells his wife one thing and his consultant something else) or there are medical reasons for delaying. Who knows. I know that it is not in line with the NHS guidance to wait until 1.0 after RP - and I would be extremely worried if that was my husband or father but we don't have the full story.

Re the MRI - At these tiny amounts of cancer that are sitting in your husband somewhere, they will be too small to show on a normal MRI - for it to show up there needs to be millions of cancer cells forming a tumour. Cells left behind in the prostate bed are unlikely to show until the PSA gets to around 3 or 4 I think. Likewise microscopic spread to lymph nodes or other places - at PSA of less than 1, only a very specialist scan such as a choline PET would have a chance of seeing where the problem is. So just because the scan was 'fine' doesn't mean there isn't cancer still growing in his body. Did the oncologist explain that?

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 20 Jul 2016 at 10:35
No he didn't explain that at all Lyn. I'm really worried now as if we had been told this I know Paul would of had RT earlier :(

User
Posted 20 Jul 2016 at 20:05

No reason to panic - your specialist has all the information and has advised you of his opinion - have RT or wait a while. He presumably guided you to what he thinks is best without you necessarily realising - if he thought you needed RT earlier then he wouldn't have suggested waiting till now and if he didn't think RT was necessary he wouldn't have offered to waste NHS money now.

Which hospital is it?

Edited by member 20 Jul 2016 at 20:21  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 21 Jul 2016 at 01:22
Velindra Cancer Hospital Cardiff
 
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