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ASKING FOR PAIN RELIEF

User
Posted 11 Dec 2016 at 22:18

I thought I'd try to find some answers to posts about pain relief on Trevor & Julie's page ('Advanced Prostate Cancer Pt 2) on 10th & 11th Dec 2016 .

 

It dawned on me that I should ask a good friend of mine who has just retired after a lifetime as a hospital (and hospice) doctor.

He replied to my email tonight, with his take on the 'pain relief system':

 

 

 

It's not a systemic problem, not inevitable, but its widespread!

For patients having surgery the anaesthetist will write up proper pain relief covering the options from paracetamol, anti inflammatories, up to weak opioids such as codeine and tramadol , up again to morphine, including patient controlled administration of that - a sort of pain ladder, if you will.

In big units they work closely with pain control nurses, and they are available for non surgical patients too if asked - these people are experts on the "pain ladder" approach from simplest to strongest

But in general wards, and for general patients, there's a reluctance on the part of senior and junior doctors to use opioids, somehow thinking they are not for general use, but should be confined to surgical and cancer and dying patients - they don't seem to realise that prescribing should match the severity of the pain rather than a particular diagnosis.

 

As for the bit about patients only getting pain relief if they ask for it, that's basically true as nearly always the pain killers are prescribed "as required"

For patients in pain the nursing plan should involve asking the patient at frequent intervals if they have pain, and be asked if the administered drug has worked

This can be okay if the patient is sensible and in control of their faculties and can ask the right questions and give the right answers to the questions  when asked about effectiveness

But not all patients are capable, and I have to say not all nurses/care assistants ask in the right way or respond in the right way either.

 

Controlled drugs are not easily used in general wards - it can take two trained nurses up to half an hour to go through the process of giving a single dose - having to check the patient, check the drug, check the stock remaining, administer it, and sign it all off -  so its very demanding on resources when times are busy, so maybe there's always some reluctance to use them.

 

Hospices are much better as a rule, but that's as much to do with resources as to do with skills or compassion - remember a hospice might have as many staff for their captive, stable population of 6-8 patients as would be there to run an acute ward of 30+ patients with loads of admissions, discharges, patients going to and from theatre etc - and acute wards can have 6-8 patients with much the same issues as the hospice ones in among the hectic activity of acute work.

So its not easy at any level.

And often it's the case -and it should be like this - that the patient or an informed relative on their behalf has to keep asking the questions and asking for help - nobody likes to feel they are being complained about or complained to!! but sometimes its the only way.

Asking for more pain relief, or having to ask "if you can't give me something can you find someone who can" is not easy but can be the only way.

 

So guys, it looks like we have to be persistent and ask, ask, ask to see someone from a Pain Control Team until we get the effective pain relief we or our love ones need.

 

 

George

 

 

 

User
Posted 11 Dec 2016 at 22:18

I thought I'd try to find some answers to posts about pain relief on Trevor & Julie's page ('Advanced Prostate Cancer Pt 2) on 10th & 11th Dec 2016 .

 

It dawned on me that I should ask a good friend of mine who has just retired after a lifetime as a hospital (and hospice) doctor.

He replied to my email tonight, with his take on the 'pain relief system':

 

 

 

It's not a systemic problem, not inevitable, but its widespread!

For patients having surgery the anaesthetist will write up proper pain relief covering the options from paracetamol, anti inflammatories, up to weak opioids such as codeine and tramadol , up again to morphine, including patient controlled administration of that - a sort of pain ladder, if you will.

In big units they work closely with pain control nurses, and they are available for non surgical patients too if asked - these people are experts on the "pain ladder" approach from simplest to strongest

But in general wards, and for general patients, there's a reluctance on the part of senior and junior doctors to use opioids, somehow thinking they are not for general use, but should be confined to surgical and cancer and dying patients - they don't seem to realise that prescribing should match the severity of the pain rather than a particular diagnosis.

 

As for the bit about patients only getting pain relief if they ask for it, that's basically true as nearly always the pain killers are prescribed "as required"

For patients in pain the nursing plan should involve asking the patient at frequent intervals if they have pain, and be asked if the administered drug has worked

This can be okay if the patient is sensible and in control of their faculties and can ask the right questions and give the right answers to the questions  when asked about effectiveness

But not all patients are capable, and I have to say not all nurses/care assistants ask in the right way or respond in the right way either.

 

Controlled drugs are not easily used in general wards - it can take two trained nurses up to half an hour to go through the process of giving a single dose - having to check the patient, check the drug, check the stock remaining, administer it, and sign it all off -  so its very demanding on resources when times are busy, so maybe there's always some reluctance to use them.

 

Hospices are much better as a rule, but that's as much to do with resources as to do with skills or compassion - remember a hospice might have as many staff for their captive, stable population of 6-8 patients as would be there to run an acute ward of 30+ patients with loads of admissions, discharges, patients going to and from theatre etc - and acute wards can have 6-8 patients with much the same issues as the hospice ones in among the hectic activity of acute work.

So its not easy at any level.

And often it's the case -and it should be like this - that the patient or an informed relative on their behalf has to keep asking the questions and asking for help - nobody likes to feel they are being complained about or complained to!! but sometimes its the only way.

Asking for more pain relief, or having to ask "if you can't give me something can you find someone who can" is not easy but can be the only way.

 

So guys, it looks like we have to be persistent and ask, ask, ask to see someone from a Pain Control Team until we get the effective pain relief we or our love ones need.

 

 

George

 

 

 

User
Posted 13 Dec 2016 at 09:58

What the consultant told me last week (while I was ranting) was that they try to avoid writing patients up for regular pain relief while they are still conscious, mainly because morphine, tramadol etc all have side effects. So in my step-mum's case, even though she was writhing in pain it was assumed that she could and would ask for something when she needed it. As she and my dad are of the 'old trooper' generation that don't like to press the buzzer or 'be any trouble' she was simply getting nothing if I wasn't there. As soon as she began to fall into a coma they gave IV morphine and codeine and also something to paralyse her (to stop the involuntary movements) - very sad.

The other thing of course is that the nurses have large numbers of cases and simply don't have time to wander round observing patients to make sure they are comfortable ... whoever presses the bell gets the response. And this was an liver / oncology ward so almost everyone was at end-of-life stage.

It is all very well to rely on patients asking - and for any of us as family / friends to complain if necessary - but what of those poor souls who have no-one visiting to speak up for them? In my experience, hospices and district nursing teams are by far the best at getting the right balance between pain relief and consciousness.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

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User
Posted 12 Dec 2016 at 09:35

Thanks for posting that George, it does make sense especially if you consider what a busy ward is like. Hard for most staff to find compassion if they are run off their feet.

Not PC related, but when John had his hip replaced he was back on the ward with a self administering morphine gadget and the next pain relief down from that was paracetamol.

He had such horrible effects with the morphine that he soldiered on without anything, since the paracetamol did nothing for the pain and just led to constipation (not somewhere you want to be with a newly installed hip)

******

We can't control the winds - but we can adjust our sails
User
Posted 12 Dec 2016 at 19:45
Thank you George,

Xx

BFN

Julie X

NEVER LAUGH AT A LIVE DRAGON
User
Posted 12 Dec 2016 at 23:40

And of course if someone has ongoing pain they should be prescribed regular pain relief to prevent the pain, rather than waiting for the pain to re-emerge. Once you have pain it is harder to tackle.

User
Posted 13 Dec 2016 at 09:58

What the consultant told me last week (while I was ranting) was that they try to avoid writing patients up for regular pain relief while they are still conscious, mainly because morphine, tramadol etc all have side effects. So in my step-mum's case, even though she was writhing in pain it was assumed that she could and would ask for something when she needed it. As she and my dad are of the 'old trooper' generation that don't like to press the buzzer or 'be any trouble' she was simply getting nothing if I wasn't there. As soon as she began to fall into a coma they gave IV morphine and codeine and also something to paralyse her (to stop the involuntary movements) - very sad.

The other thing of course is that the nurses have large numbers of cases and simply don't have time to wander round observing patients to make sure they are comfortable ... whoever presses the bell gets the response. And this was an liver / oncology ward so almost everyone was at end-of-life stage.

It is all very well to rely on patients asking - and for any of us as family / friends to complain if necessary - but what of those poor souls who have no-one visiting to speak up for them? In my experience, hospices and district nursing teams are by far the best at getting the right balance between pain relief and consciousness.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

 
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