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Control How?

User
Posted 28 Feb 2018 at 13:58

I am 8 weeks post op, (open surgery) and am having trouble controlling sudden urine bursts and spurts. How can I get pelvic floor system to react when these spurts just come out of the blue without notice. i would welcome some advice please. How does leakage improve, does it just suddenly stop one day (please God). i have my first appointment at the ED clinic on Monday and am feeling a little bit shy due to the loss of what seems to be several inches post op. Is this a common cause of the op? Are there any questions I need to ask at this appointment? I have yet to meet the Surgeon who performed op, and am told it will be 12 weeks after op, is this normal to wait that long? I have no idea if cancer has spread or not and am feeling quite worried at the length of time taken to see me after op. 

Please any advise would be welcomed.

User
Posted 28 Feb 2018 at 16:14

Hello Barry,

I can tell you are anxious and can only suggest that while you wait for a member with the experience to answer you that you ring one of the specialist nurses on 0800 074 8383 for reassurance.

8 Weeks seems a very long time to you but realistically, having had surgery, it's no time at all. Your insides have to recover so you shouldn't expect too much too soon.

Yes, some men are lucky enough to regain control of their bladder almost immediately but it also isn't unusual to have to wait for nature to take it's course and let you heal.

12 weeks also doesn't seem unreasonable to me for the surgical consultant's appointment. He is also going to be waiting for you to heal before he evaluates your progress.

IF the cancer has spread (IF IF IF) then it can be sorted out.

Your profile doesn't state whether the cancer was contained in the prostate but I assume if it wasn't then you would not have been able to have surgery but I expect somebody else will confirm that for you.

Try and be patient for a while and do what exercises you can in the meantime

Edited by member 28 Feb 2018 at 16:15  | Reason: Not specified

We can't control the winds - but we can adjust our sails
User
Posted 28 Feb 2018 at 19:00

Your muscles have been cut slashed and battered and it will take time for your brain to relearn how to control them. In addition at least one valve controlling flow of urine out of your bladder has been removed and the other may be intact but bruised or may have been resited. So basically, you are where you were as a toddler, learning how to control a set of muscles that seem quite alien to you.

Are you dry at night yet?

Re the ED clinic - the ED nurse or adviser will be well used to seeing men post op and will know that reduced length is a common side effect of prostate removal and that reduced girth is a side effect of not having regular erections. Try to put it out of your mind - they have seen it all before. Our urologist once told me that some men are left with such a shortened penis that they can no longer wee at a urinal and have to sit down instead.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 01 Mar 2018 at 11:51

I don't know whether it is any consolation, but I am pretty sure you are "in the normal range" for recovering continence, given it is pretty wide.

Your experience isn't that different from mine, I was tearing my hair out at that stage with frustration at the continuing leaks. However bit by bit things improved, not all at once I am afraid. Psychologically I was lucky that that was the point where we had a pre-booked beach holiday; I wasn't optimistic about going but it did me the world of good to discover that I could chill out and enjoy myself despite the need every so often to change pads.

What I found (and no one's experience is identical) is that very gradually I was using fewer pads, from around 8 a day when the catheter came out to 4 or 5 and then slowly down to 1. What seemed to happen was that the sphincters very slowly got stronger and could hold back more in the bladder, the problem being that the small capacity at the beginning was not enough for me to have the sense of needing urination so I would start oozing once that level was reached. After around 6 months there was enough capacity that there was a slight sense of fullness so I was able (usually) to use the toilet before leaking. However it wasn't till around 9 months that I was mostly managing with just 1 pad a day.

In practice the improved strength wasn't constant through the day, I found that I had more control in the morning but it fell away as the day went on and presumably the sphincters got tired. In fact that is still the case: right now I have a cold that turned into a bad cough and find myself again needing multiple pads. My assumption is the sphincters tire much quicker when they are being worked hard to resist the extra pressure from each cough, and by the evening I am experiencing again the seemingly random leaks I thought were well in the past. I am crossing my fingers that the cough will eventually disappear and I will be back where I was.

At the moment, a little less than 2 years from the operation, I definitely need a pad though on my best days I could get away with a thin liner one (if of course I knew in advance which days were going to be good ones). I am hoping I am one of those who continues to slowly improve out to 3 years from the operation and pads will eventually be in the past, but if that is how it is one a day isn't too much of a hardship.

ED is a whole different story, but I followed the advice (medication and pump) and an acceptable level of function has returned despite only one nerve being preserved.

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User
Posted 28 Feb 2018 at 16:14

Hello Barry,

I can tell you are anxious and can only suggest that while you wait for a member with the experience to answer you that you ring one of the specialist nurses on 0800 074 8383 for reassurance.

8 Weeks seems a very long time to you but realistically, having had surgery, it's no time at all. Your insides have to recover so you shouldn't expect too much too soon.

Yes, some men are lucky enough to regain control of their bladder almost immediately but it also isn't unusual to have to wait for nature to take it's course and let you heal.

12 weeks also doesn't seem unreasonable to me for the surgical consultant's appointment. He is also going to be waiting for you to heal before he evaluates your progress.

IF the cancer has spread (IF IF IF) then it can be sorted out.

Your profile doesn't state whether the cancer was contained in the prostate but I assume if it wasn't then you would not have been able to have surgery but I expect somebody else will confirm that for you.

Try and be patient for a while and do what exercises you can in the meantime

Edited by member 28 Feb 2018 at 16:15  | Reason: Not specified

We can't control the winds - but we can adjust our sails
User
Posted 28 Feb 2018 at 19:00

Your muscles have been cut slashed and battered and it will take time for your brain to relearn how to control them. In addition at least one valve controlling flow of urine out of your bladder has been removed and the other may be intact but bruised or may have been resited. So basically, you are where you were as a toddler, learning how to control a set of muscles that seem quite alien to you.

Are you dry at night yet?

Re the ED clinic - the ED nurse or adviser will be well used to seeing men post op and will know that reduced length is a common side effect of prostate removal and that reduced girth is a side effect of not having regular erections. Try to put it out of your mind - they have seen it all before. Our urologist once told me that some men are left with such a shortened penis that they can no longer wee at a urinal and have to sit down instead.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 01 Mar 2018 at 11:51

I don't know whether it is any consolation, but I am pretty sure you are "in the normal range" for recovering continence, given it is pretty wide.

Your experience isn't that different from mine, I was tearing my hair out at that stage with frustration at the continuing leaks. However bit by bit things improved, not all at once I am afraid. Psychologically I was lucky that that was the point where we had a pre-booked beach holiday; I wasn't optimistic about going but it did me the world of good to discover that I could chill out and enjoy myself despite the need every so often to change pads.

What I found (and no one's experience is identical) is that very gradually I was using fewer pads, from around 8 a day when the catheter came out to 4 or 5 and then slowly down to 1. What seemed to happen was that the sphincters very slowly got stronger and could hold back more in the bladder, the problem being that the small capacity at the beginning was not enough for me to have the sense of needing urination so I would start oozing once that level was reached. After around 6 months there was enough capacity that there was a slight sense of fullness so I was able (usually) to use the toilet before leaking. However it wasn't till around 9 months that I was mostly managing with just 1 pad a day.

In practice the improved strength wasn't constant through the day, I found that I had more control in the morning but it fell away as the day went on and presumably the sphincters got tired. In fact that is still the case: right now I have a cold that turned into a bad cough and find myself again needing multiple pads. My assumption is the sphincters tire much quicker when they are being worked hard to resist the extra pressure from each cough, and by the evening I am experiencing again the seemingly random leaks I thought were well in the past. I am crossing my fingers that the cough will eventually disappear and I will be back where I was.

At the moment, a little less than 2 years from the operation, I definitely need a pad though on my best days I could get away with a thin liner one (if of course I knew in advance which days were going to be good ones). I am hoping I am one of those who continues to slowly improve out to 3 years from the operation and pads will eventually be in the past, but if that is how it is one a day isn't too much of a hardship.

ED is a whole different story, but I followed the advice (medication and pump) and an acceptable level of function has returned despite only one nerve being preserved.

User
Posted 01 Mar 2018 at 14:39
For me full control returned after about 6 or 7 weeks, haven’t touched any pads since or had any leaks

From what I remember it was a fairly unconscious thing, I wasn’t trying to do anything and just sort of noticed my muscles / valves or whatever acting on their own to hold in urine if it began leaking

The body is amazing the way it can adapt

User
Posted 16 May 2018 at 15:44
Hi,

I feel for you on this count. It is certainly the case that most men post prostatectomy have incontinence. One good quality study showed that the longer term outlook is fairly accurately predictable. 1 week post catheter removal is the critical stage. If using 3 or more pads per day then you will have long term continence issues, Lessthan here pads indicates continence regained within 6 months.

However what you describe is sudden spurts. The bladder is like gut really, it has regular. Contractions, and whilst young and with a healthy prosttate these are unnoticed, but when nerves are cut or worse cauterised then full recovery fails. Then these quick contractions get! Through uncontrolled. Post op the bladder is more irritable.

The evidence on pelvic floor exercises is woolly and they did nothing for me and many others say the same.

Your prognosis for getting dry depends on the pad use 1 week after catheter removal.

I was like you and at 1 week after catheter was using 6-8 pads per day and bitterly disappointed. Apparently appointments with bowel and bladder service had a 4 month waiting time, - another story. I worked for years with children with enuresis and continence problems. Irritable bladdersoften respond well to a sustained release anti cholinergic drug, Lyrinel XL. The dose needs to be built up as the main side effect is dry mouth. Revelation, not totally dry but now manageable to 1 or 2 pads a day.

I was a medium risk, clear margins, no lymph node involvementso refused radiotherapy. I am well aware of the long term morbidity of radiotherapy., incontinence gets worse gradually and bladder and bowel haemorrhage even years later, plus the cancer risk. So far so good.

Hope your continence does improve and you could try Lyrinel XL afteriscussion with your Dr.

'Health is the slowest possible way of dying'

A.

 
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