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Dairy Free or Reduced Diet

User
Posted 17 Aug 2019 at 18:05

The link below about Charles 'Snuffy' Myers contains the quote also shown below about the fatty acid 'arachidonic' that converts to a hormone '5-HETE' which appears to spread Prostate Cancer cells.  The fatty acid is found in meat and dairy products including egg yolk.

Sometimes people do research in a lab and find things that in real life has no real effect.  The only study I found from 2006 on 10000 men, 900 with prostate cancer says that despite plausible biological mechanisms increasing dairy product intake was not shown to be associated with prostate cancer risk.

There are posts on here about dairy free diets and it seems some doctors are telling patients to cut down. 

Is there really value in cutting out or cutting down on these foods related to Prostate Cancer and if so is there any guidance on safe amounts for different conditions?

I'm guessing the answer is to cut it down just in case.

Regards
Peter

Thanks to Frankij1 for the link below which is in a conversation thread by Andy62. 

'Myers’s major activities revolved around prostate cancer treatment and research. His research group demonstrated that the fatty acid, arachidonic, common in meat, dairy products, and egg yolks, promotes the survival and growth of human prostate cancer cells. They showed that arachidonic acid is converted to a hormone, 5-HETE, which appears to foster the spread of prostate cancer. Dr. Myers has long been popular among prostate cancer patients as a speaker because of his ability to explain science and medicine in easy-to-understand language.'

The link:

https://grandroundsinurology.com/author/cmyers/

 

User
Posted 17 Aug 2019 at 19:11

It’s an interesting point.

i am not qualified to know the answer however here is my view for what it’s worth with no science at all! 

if you asked people generally what is good for you they would probably say, less meat, dairy and eggs, more fruit and veg, less processed food, limited alcohol and more exercise.

time will tell if the many important Pcuk/ cancer research and other funded embryonic studies find out exactly what stimulates or kills a prostate cancer cells but that’s not something I probably have time to wait for so for now I will go with what I think most people would say ( doctors included). May be a waste of time but it’s making an effort to be as healthy as I can be so I am as strong as possible to fight the bu@@er .

ps age 54 just got back from finishing a 33 mile trail running race , nearly 5 years from diagnosis T4n1m1a, PSA 342 ( now 0.13), so I recon I am doing something right!

Dream like you have forever, live like you only have today Avatar is me doing the 600 mile Camino de Santiago May 2019

User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 09:59
Give up sex,Give up booze.Give up smoking.You don't live longer it just seems like it.
User
Posted 22 Aug 2019 at 11:27

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
so 99% of the dietary talk is shutting the stable door 15-20 years after the horse has bolted.

Was chatting to a researcher yesterday about something that struck me during my 3 days on a cancer ward last week. The ward is mainly people who are overweight, obviously been drinking for some time, or who are/were smokers. A notable exception were the 3 prostate cancer patients, who were all remarkably fit.

The researcher commented that, compared with most other common cancers, we have very little clue what causes prostate cancer. However, it's most likely something that happens during puberty (when the prostate is growing) or genetic, and little if anything to do with any factors during your adult life.

This ties up with the correlations I reported a few months back that Professor Tim Oliver presented at the Tackle 2019 conference, namely that lack of Vitamin D during puberty and acne during puberty both correlate with increased chance of PCa in later life.

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User
Posted 17 Aug 2019 at 19:11

It’s an interesting point.

i am not qualified to know the answer however here is my view for what it’s worth with no science at all! 

if you asked people generally what is good for you they would probably say, less meat, dairy and eggs, more fruit and veg, less processed food, limited alcohol and more exercise.

time will tell if the many important Pcuk/ cancer research and other funded embryonic studies find out exactly what stimulates or kills a prostate cancer cells but that’s not something I probably have time to wait for so for now I will go with what I think most people would say ( doctors included). May be a waste of time but it’s making an effort to be as healthy as I can be so I am as strong as possible to fight the bu@@er .

ps age 54 just got back from finishing a 33 mile trail running race , nearly 5 years from diagnosis T4n1m1a, PSA 342 ( now 0.13), so I recon I am doing something right!

Dream like you have forever, live like you only have today Avatar is me doing the 600 mile Camino de Santiago May 2019

User
Posted 17 Aug 2019 at 19:41

I took the view that the evidence on dairy was too thin for me to drop it, given I do like it.

I didn't look into it a whole lot, so I wouldn't suggest anyone else takes my word for it though.

Another theory about dairy is that it's the calcium content in it. Well, many of us (me included) are actually taking calcium supplements while on ADT.

User
Posted 17 Aug 2019 at 22:16

irun, I suspect it's more likely your exercise routine!

Interestingly there is no evidence whatsoever for meat being a factor in PC, in fact I would argue there is very little evidence for meat (unprocessed) bring s factor in any cancers. Rather there is a lot of evidence that diets hi in vegetables IS protective.

Dairy is s little more nuanced I believe there is some evidence for milk but not fermented cheeses eg cheddar.

I was vegetarian for 30 years prior to getting PC I now eat whatever I fancy because life is for living!

Oh and of course you really don't want any unfermented soya it's full of oestrogens!

Edited by member 17 Aug 2019 at 22:17  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 17 Aug 2019 at 22:28
Peter

15 years since diagnosis diet is none or very little processed food. The rest is nothing barred and all in moderation.

Irun

Well done ou your runs. At nigh on 74 you've eventually inspired me to run. Not long completed couch 2 5K at all run1 rest1.

Ray

User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 01:28
Anyone can read what they want to believe into the research that is out there. Franci says there is no research about meat but actually there is a lot of research to suggest that red muscle meat is bad for the prostate; there are plenty of members here (or were here in the past) who are complete Plant converts although she wasn't a medical doctor and eventually succumbed to cancer despite following her own diet.

The most reliable research all seems to conclude the same things. Burnt food, fried food in old fat, heavily processed meat, high dairy intake, food wrapped / cooked in cling film, water in battered plastic bottles are all carcinogenic. They can lead to a number of different cancers. As far as PCa goes, the Prostate Cancer Research foundation concluded that muscle meat, dairy, processed foods are all bad for the prostate and that if we cut these things out of little boys' diets, PCa could be eradicated. However, they also concluded that there is little point cutting these things out of your diet once you have been diagnosed. Lots of men would disagree strongly with this and in the end, if someone feels that they are giving themselves the best shot at remission or longevity of HT by changing their diet then who is to say that they are wrong.

We were already a no cling film, no plastic bottles, no microwave, no chip pan house because of the link between these things and brain tumours. When John was first diagnosed, I cut out all dairy, meat, etc and seriously upped his intake of onions, garlic, processed tomatoes and oily fish. Soya is good, barbecuing is bad. It took me a while to realise he was cheating whenever I turned my back; now he eats what he likes in moderation but still very little dairy.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 01:31
PS never seen any research that suggested calcium as a problem, it is the growth hormones in dairy and muscle meats that seem to be the baddies.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 09:02

Diet and PCa is s very interesting and contraversal subject. From what I have read:

All meat and fish produce heterocyclic amines when cooked especially at high temperature. I think poultry skin is worst. Heterocyclic amines are carcinogenic.

Some studies have found eggs to also be an influence on PCa. Maybe because of the high choline content.

Dairy is high in Insulin Like Growth Factor (IGF-1) and growth hormones. Both stimulate rapid growth of cells which is why it is good for all new born mammals but suspected to be an influence on the growth of cancer cells.

Processed tomatoes are good because of high lycopene content which is an anti oxidant, but tinned tomatoes being acidic can absorb BPA from the plastic lining the tin. BPA, present in most plastics is also carcinogenic.

As I said just what I've read. We all make our own choices on diet depending on attitude to risk and what we believe or choose not to believe.

I believe in giving myself the best chance I can and while I'm not totally convinced by some opinions I think there is enough evidence even if not conclusive to warrant almost cutting out the foods mentioned above and adding the ones thought to be beneficial.

I also believe that excercise and being a healthy weight are major factors in boosting our general health and I'm about 2.5 stone lighter than pre DX.

If I ever do get a reccurrence at least I'll know I did all I could. If I don't then I'll never know if life style played a part or not. Plus I'm enjoying feeling generally fitter and healthier than I have for many years.

I should probably just add that alcohol Is still part of my lifestyle, but now it's weekends only. Like I said we all make our choices. It's about QoL as well.

All the best to you all

Cheers

Bill

User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 09:20

It's well worth cutting down on dairy: good for the planet, good for your cardiovascular system, good for your wallet. There's plenty of evidence for all of them. There's no evidence whatsoever that it will have any effect on your PCa* - though it might have if you cut down 30 years ago.

There's plenty of science on what is good / bad for you; why jump at fads / rumours / pseudoscience? Seems to me that with PCa on your plate, you have enough stress without getting neurotic about diet.

But hey, if it makes you happy, knock yourself out! 🤠

 

*Unless you happen to live in a petri dish. I don't.

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 09:59
Give up sex,Give up booze.Give up smoking.You don't live longer it just seems like it.
User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 10:05
User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 22:37

Sorry there is no evidence for unprocessed meat being causitive agents in prostate cancer.

Unfermented soya eg tofu is linked to hormone related cancers

It is more likely IMHO that the association (and that's all it is) of meat with cancers is more likely one of the richness of your diet. Hence PC is more prevalent in wealthy societies

Edited by member 18 Aug 2019 at 23:07  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 18 Aug 2019 at 23:02

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
and that if we cut these things out of little boys' diets, PCa could be eradicated.

One of the talks at the Tackle 2019 conference was based on environmentally driven PCa likely being triggered by what happens during puberty. Two good correlations found so far in this work are lack of vitamin D (mapped from lack of playing outdoors), and having had acne during puberty.

User
Posted 20 Aug 2019 at 16:33

Rob, a well liked former member of this forum and extensive researcher into things possibly affecting PCa, went to very considerable lengths by way of omitting certain foods from his diet whilst actively taking others. He lost out to PCa in the end but believed the dietary changes he made did give him time that he would not otherwise have had. Details of his regime are given in his Bio. He was, incidentally, a keen follower of 'Snuffy Myers' https://community.prostatecanceruk.org/default.aspx?g=profile&u=656

 

 

Edited by member 20 Aug 2019 at 16:34  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
User
Posted 20 Aug 2019 at 17:55

That's an interesting profile Barry and he lasted around 11 years from the age of 51.  He had extra-capsular extension but no real spread for quite a few years.   So did diet stop it spreading faster.   

His profile suggests he had bowel problems for some time before diagnosis and much of his diet was linked to problems with HT and RT.   Although I only read it once.

At the moment I've cut back but not stopped eating dairy.  I don't eat much meat anyway.

 

User
Posted 21 Aug 2019 at 09:51

There is no evidence that meat (processed or otherwise) is associated with prostate cancer, though there is pretty solid evidence, going back 20 years, that red meat is a cause of bowel cancer. More recently, it's been confirmed that processed meat (eg Bacon aka God's Own Meat) is also a causative factor in bowel cancer.

But don't confuse causes of cancer with affecting the progress of cancer. If you are reading this, chances are you already have cancer, so 99% of the dietary talk is shutting the stable door 15-20 years after the horse has bolted.

By all means deceive yourself if that makes life easier - but please don't claim there is science to support it, because there simply is not. None at all. Zilch. Nada. None.

Thank you, in the name of science, without which we'd ALL be dead by now.

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 22 Aug 2019 at 06:48
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4266887/ Calcium and phosphorus

Soy - total shipshow with for and against

Meat and dairy- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3232297/

Plenty of stuff out there much conflicting.

Put PCA aside. What is a healthy diet? Lots of veg, lots of oily fish (mind the mercury!), limited meat, no dairy and don’t mess with supplements other than D.

Works for me when I stick to it!

User
Posted 22 Aug 2019 at 08:58
The report you quote contains the following conclusion

"unprocessed red meat is not associated with an increased risk of lethal prostate cancer"

Pretty conclusive when the thesis being tested was the opposite!

Plenty of vegetables, stay slim, don't eat chicken skins!

User
Posted 22 Aug 2019 at 11:27

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
so 99% of the dietary talk is shutting the stable door 15-20 years after the horse has bolted.

Was chatting to a researcher yesterday about something that struck me during my 3 days on a cancer ward last week. The ward is mainly people who are overweight, obviously been drinking for some time, or who are/were smokers. A notable exception were the 3 prostate cancer patients, who were all remarkably fit.

The researcher commented that, compared with most other common cancers, we have very little clue what causes prostate cancer. However, it's most likely something that happens during puberty (when the prostate is growing) or genetic, and little if anything to do with any factors during your adult life.

This ties up with the correlations I reported a few months back that Professor Tim Oliver presented at the Tackle 2019 conference, namely that lack of Vitamin D during puberty and acne during puberty both correlate with increased chance of PCa in later life.

User
Posted 22 Aug 2019 at 12:58
Obesity is a proven risk factor in PC too so not being obese is always a smart move.

User
Posted 03 Sep 2019 at 11:57

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Obesity is a proven risk factor in PC too so not being obese is always a smart move.

Quite: obesity is a risk factor in almost everything. Though, again, largely too late for the folk on this forum, who already have it. 

But not being obese is always good advice, and you'll almost certainly live longer if you're not, if only because you'll be more nimble and better able to avoid oncoming buses.

Edited by member 03 Sep 2019 at 11:57  | Reason: Autocorrect correction.

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 03 Sep 2019 at 13:36
Interesting that Andy I also read a report that high testosterone produced high levels of sebum and consequently resulted in acne.

Another report mentioned what you said that acne in puberty gave a 6 X more chance of developing prostate cancer in later life.

I had a bad time with acne in my late teens so have certainly followed this unfortunate pattern.

User
Posted 03 Sep 2019 at 17:14
Neither John or my dad ever had spotty skin, let alone acne. Law of probabilities again?
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 03 Sep 2019 at 22:58

I expect that when we get to the point we know what causes PCa, there will be a whole string of things like acne, Vit D deficiency, and other things as yet not discovered.

There will still be some people who get PCa who had none of the known triggers though. It will probably be something like a baseline 1 in 40 chance of getting it (I just made up that value), but a whole load of specific things that multiply that chance up so it becomes the 1 in 8 on average that we see today.

User
Posted 24 Oct 2019 at 18:39

More information in the Times on 22nd October 2019 about dairy and plant based diet affecting the prostate. 

In summary, if you read right through:  Dairy is still inconclusive, but plant based could be good.

.......................................................................................................................................................................................

Link to the article behind paywall probably:  https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-10-22/news/dairy-heavy-diet-linked-to-prostate-cancer-risk-22n3gfl6w

 

Eating lots of dairy products gives an increased risk of prostate cancer while men who follow a plant-based diet are at the lowest risk, analysis suggests.

Researchers examined 47 studies published between 2006 and 2017 and found that men with a dairy-heavy diet were up to 65 per cent more likely to develop prostate cancer. It has been suggested that calcium may be a factor.

Scientists at the Mayo Clinic in the US did not quantify how much milk, cheese, butter or yoghurt constituted a large amount but concluded: “Our review of the literature suggests that consumption of higher amounts of plant-based foods may be associated with decreased prostate cancer risk, and higher amounts of dairy products may be associated with increased risk.”

Researchers found no link with meat or fish but said that those following vegan diets were up to 36 per cent less likely to develop the condition. About 11,700 men die of prostate cancer in the UK each year.

More than a million people were examined across the 47 studies. The researchers said that of 22 studies on the link between “total dairy” consumption and prostate cancer, eight had found that dairy products increased the risk, 13 found that it made no difference and one linked it to a lower risk.

Ten studies out of 22 found that milk increased the risk, ten found that it made no difference and two found that it decreased the risk. A higher risk was shown by one of nine studies on cheese, one of five on butter and cream and two of nine on yoghurt. The rest showed that consumption of these products made no difference.

Prostate Cancer UK warns on its website: “Eating or drinking lots of dairy products . . . might increase your risk. We don’t know why this is but it might be because of the calcium.”

 

John Shin, an oncologist at the Mayo Clinic, said: “Our review highlighted a cause for concern with high consumption of dairy. The findings also support a growing body of evidence on the potential benefits of plant-based diets.” He said more research was needed.

Tom Sanders, professor of nutrition and dietetics at King’s College London, said the research did “not justify the strong conclusions”. The World Cancer Research Fund had conducted a “far more rigorous review”, he said, which found that “being overweight or obese were the only dietary factors probably associated with risk of prostate cancer”.

He added that the new review “only considered dairy and calcium intake as a possible cause” but did not have sufficient evidence to prove the link.

Sophia Lowes from Cancer Research UK said the analysis did not comment on the quality of the studies it analysed and did not clarify whether they examined only the risk of aggressive prostate cancer, as opposed to benign.

“We don’t think the evidence is strong enough to warrant a change in our guidance for men,” she said. “We need more high-quality research.”

 

User
Posted 25 Oct 2019 at 11:16

All fascinating stuff, but again, be clear. They're all about the causes of prostate cancer. 

None of them are making any claims at all about people who already have cancer. None of them.

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 25 Oct 2019 at 11:55
Sounds pretty inconclusive to me either way!

How many people on this planet have eaten a plant based diet from birth anyway??

Who knows what the cumulative effect of natural toxins in plants that discourage their consumption (especially by organisms not evolved to eat them like humans!!) will have when consumed for a life time.

So if you want to give yourself the best chance at enjoying a long life - maximise your leafy veg intake and eat sensible amounts of the foods we were designed to eat. So that probably means minimise dairy but don't avoid it completely, after all we would probably have relished consuming Auroch udders including milk after we had chased and killed it.

User
Posted 26 Oct 2019 at 02:35

There probably is something in dairy, but lack of consistency between studies implies they are not taking something into account which is very significant.

If I was to guess what that was, it would be that dairy consumed up to the end of puberty might be significant, but dairy consumed after puberty isn't. This would tie up with some other risk factors which have been found, although I'm not aware that researcher has looked at dairy as yet.

Edited by member 26 Oct 2019 at 02:36  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 26 Oct 2019 at 14:24

Andy,  if that was true it could be a reason for me.   When I was at school I used to finish off the crate of free milk just about every day which sometimes would be pints of milk, they were 1/3 pint bottles.   Although I don't know why that should be a reason almost 60 years later.

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 08:43
I read somewhere that milk is high in IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) and contains many different growth hormones. Milk is what is fed to all young infant mammals and promotes rapid cell growth. If I have any Cancer cells on my body the last thing I want is to promote rapid cell growth. Just my opinion though.

Meat that is cooked at high temperatures produces Heterocyclic Amines which are a known carcinogen. Red meat and poultry skin are the worst, with barbecue compounding the issue because as well as the high temperature the fat drips onto the fire and burns. The smoke produced contains more Heterocyclic Amines.

Cheers

Bill

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 08:58

"milk is high in IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) and contains many different growth hormones. Milk is what is fed to all young infant mammals and promotes rapid cell growth. If I have any Cancer cells on my body the last thing I want is to promote rapid cell growth."

Interesting theoretical argument, but there is no evidence to back it up. Similarly, your thigh bones don't continue to grow as an adult when you consume milk. Wierd but true. Nor does your nose.

Just science's opinion.

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 09:21

"Similarly, your thigh bones don't continue to grow as an adult when you consume milk. Wierd but true. Nor does your nose."
😂

True but cancer cells might.

Like I said just my opinion. There's enough possibility for me to avoid dairy. The only thing I miss is cheese which I eat occasionally.

The red meat and Heterocyclic Amines bit is fact.

Cheers

Bill

 

Cheers
Bill

Edited by member 27 Oct 2019 at 09:34  | Reason: Added

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 10:15

"True but cancer cells might."

But there's absolutely no evidence to say they do. You are - of course - welcome to your opinion, but where my life is concerned, I defer to the experts.

I know it's fashionable to think we all know better than these "so called experts", but that's one fashion I don't subscribe to. 

Edited by member 27 Oct 2019 at 10:16  | Reason: Not specified

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 11:10
I disagree Heenan; the Prostate Cancer Research Foundation recommends reducing dairy intake, the NCI published persuasive data in 2017 on the benefit of women with advanced breast cancer reducing dairy intake, and the Mayo Clinic, MSK and increasing numbers of cancer specialists in the UK all state that cutting down on dairy may slow down cancer growth. It was a specific topic at the urological oncology national conference 3 or 4 years ago - Si’s onco came to the Leicester meet and spoke about it.

As stated before, there is an increasing body of evidence that if we changed the diets of young boys, prostate cancer might eventually be eradicated - Mr P told John and I about the research data on that nearly 10 years ago so it is nothing new. There is also some data to suggest that diet adjustments may help to slow down the progression of advanced PCa, or at least to not work against the treatments. What doesn’t seem to exist is any evidence or even indicative data to support the idea that changing diet will have any impact on a man that has had successful radical treatment (beyond that of becoming healthier, fitter, etc)

Bill, the burnt food thing is spot on. The research around brain tumours (where most of my interest and reading lies) and familial / environmental factors is fascinating but particularly:

- regularly eating burnt food, including barbecued

- chips cooked in a pan of oil that was rarely changed

- food cooked or wrapped in cling film

- compromised water supply and the wholesale addition of chemicals

- possible links with radon affected areas

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 11:29

I totally agree that a healthier diet in healthy people would mean less cancer. There's plenty of evidence that reducing dairy, red meat and processed meat, for example, world reduce the incidence of cancer. No question.

But it's a different story for those of us who already have cancer. Diet does not cure cancer. Full Stop.

In this thread people constantly mix cancer causation with cancer progress. They are two very different things.

Whether you have cancer or not, cutting out dairy would probably help you live longer, as it will reduce cardiovascular disease. Again, no contest. But it will not reverse or change your cancer, and there is no evidence that it does.

I would never argue with a healthy diet for it's own sake, any more than I'd give up bacon or cheese. Why add a few months to your life by cutting out the things you love? You won't live longer, you'll merely exist longer.

 

Edited by member 27 Oct 2019 at 11:33  | Reason: Clarification

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 20:05
Heenan for the majority of cancers there is zero evidence that eating meat causes anything.

There is however lots of evidence that eating a well balanced diet reduces all cancer.

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 20:27

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Heenan for the majority of cancers there is zero evidence that eating meat causes anything.

There is however lots of evidence that eating a well balanced diet reduces all cancer.

Red meat and processed meat are implicated in Bowel Cancer, with a little evidence of bladder cancer.

Again, separating cause / course, a well balanced 'healthy' diet certainly reduces the risk of getting cancer, but does not affect already present cancers - though adopting a health diet, with or without cancer, will probably help you live a little longer.

One of our greatest oncologists once told me that people eating the cancer 'get well' diet never got depressed. Mind you, he added, when you're slicing vegetables 18 hours a day, you don't have time to get depressed.

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 20:48

And, lest we forget, adopting a healthy diet in your sixties (or thereabouts) really isn't going to make a huge difference to longevity.

So those who hate vegetables really shouldn't stress about their diet.

The important thing is to live - really live - not destroy your surviving years stressing about stretching it by a few weeks. That's just crazy, isn't it?

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 20:58
I spent six months on a ship with a fellow officer who wasn’t allowed to drink alcohol at all due to his religion. He sat at the bar wanting to join in and really wanted to at least try rum and raisin ice cream. Not sure where I’m going here but really ? ...... Recently there has been a change in risk for red and processed meat. Now it seems ok. There was the whole don’t eat butter and have margarine. Then there was the whole margarine and polyunsaturated fats cause cancer. Then the egg thing. Should I say to my son don’t eat meat , don’t enjoy cheese , try not to drink alcohol or caffeine, never have a hot-dog or burger , avoid bacon and salami etc , and you will live a long healthy happy cancer-free life. Soz but I don’t believe any of this, but have many vegetarian and vegan friends who look really healthy to be honest , but actually are off work sick a lot

If life gives you lemons , then make lemonade

User
Posted 27 Oct 2019 at 21:34

Chris, part of the problem is the media. Many big studies over many years have shown the red meat / processed meat problem. One study, not particularly large, finds differently and the media is all over it.

Same with saturated fats. Overwhelming evidence that they're bad, one study says different and the BBC goes mad .

I'm sure vegetarianism is good. If you start young. Veganism I'm not so sure.

.

-- Andrew --

"I intend to live forever, or die trying" - Groucho Marx

 
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