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Imaging scans

User
Posted 09 Dec 2019 at 10:20

Hello all, 


I am new to this after my dad's recent diagnosis of APC, and so I have a lot of questions swirling around my head. I wondered if anybody had done any research on the advancements of imaging scans in the UK, and how much more they reveal than scans from say 10+ years ago. The reason I ask is I wonder if scans showing a small amount of mets nowadays would've been missed 10+ years ago, and therefore would that person have been staged at an earlier stage than they would be now? Does anybody know how much the scans have improved over the years in spotting tiny amounts of spread? 


In my research I have found a fair amount of success stories of people diagnosed 10-20 years ago, with PSAs in the hundreds and yet their scans at the time showed no spread. It makes me wonder if these people did actually have some small amounts of mets that just couldn't be seen. I'm very new to all this so but just looking to educate myself as much as possible and for some hope to hold on to. 


Many thanks. 

User
Posted 10 Dec 2019 at 22:45

Hey ,


Although advancements have been made in imaging in the last 10 years or so , it doesn’t necessarily mean those advancements are in the quality of imaging, for example it could be the acquisition time of scan in mri  or the radiation dose used to achieve the scan  In ct. Other advances would be the used of diffusion weighted imaging in MRI. 


prostate cancer goes to bones , bone mets could be picked up on a variety of imaging modalities - ct , mri and X-ray all show bone mets so there is little chance that even 10 years ago they would have been completely missed. 

I know all this because I am diagnostic radiographer it’s my job to know. But since jan 19 I am also the daughter of a dad with  prostate cancer with bone mets. Now that’s been a hard learning curve and a bitter one to swallow. My advice would be order the pack from here it’s really informative, join your local Maggies centre - my dad refused to go to the support group ( he now goes every week and has a wee group of new pals who phone if he doesn’t make a week to see he’s okay!)ha and use your local Macmillan contacts. 


good luck on your journey and remember to check it here 💕💕


 


Amy 

User
Posted 09 Dec 2019 at 22:04

In the last decade an increasing number of hospitals have the 3 Tesla MRI scanners which produce better defined images and also more hospitals are providing a more comprehensive mpMRI whether using 3Tesla or 1.5 Tesla scanners. A more recent innovation is the 68 Gallium PSMA scan available presently at very few facilities in the UK. It has been said that this can help identify smaller deposits of cancer throughout the body and lead to a change of the treatment plan in a very significant number of men. It can't identify finely dispersed cancer cells and does not work on about 8% of men who do not express sufficient PSMA. There is at least one new scan being trialed that shows promise of finding smaller tumours.


"In summary, the Oxford PSMA symposium 2018 brought together clinicians from around the globe who share a common enthusiasm for PSMA-related technologies that promise to revolutionise prostate cancer management in the near future. Common themes included the use of PSMA in staging, therapeutics and intra-operative guidance. The message from our overseas guests, both European and Antipodean, was that PSMA-based imaging is increasingly part of routine care in the management of prostate cancer and definite benefits are seen, particularly in regard to accurate staging and identification of very early recurrence. While we in the UK are a little behind the curve when it comes to adoption of this increasingly established technology, we are hopeful of increasing the use of this technology in the NHS in order to rationalise appropriate treatment, reduce futile expenditure and ensure gold-standard management of men with prostate cancer."


The above is an extract from https://www.bjuinternational.com/bjui-blog/psma-at-the-cutting-edge-of-prostate-cancer-treatment-report-from-a-psma-symposium-convened-at-the-university-of-oxford/


Notwithstanding the foregoing, I think it unlikely that the present PSMA scans will be used much in most men initially but more where there is a suspected recurrence.  However, ongoing improvements in MRI are likely to provide more accurate staging.  My initial staging was upgraded from T2A to T3A after MRI.

Edited by member 09 Dec 2019 at 22:30  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
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User
Posted 09 Dec 2019 at 12:33

Thanks for your reply. I just wondered because if early spread went undetected a decade or go, then you might have been classed as T3 and therefore on a different treatment path. With more sensitive imaging, I wonder if that correlates with more frequent advanced staging. 

User
Posted 09 Dec 2019 at 22:04

In the last decade an increasing number of hospitals have the 3 Tesla MRI scanners which produce better defined images and also more hospitals are providing a more comprehensive mpMRI whether using 3Tesla or 1.5 Tesla scanners. A more recent innovation is the 68 Gallium PSMA scan available presently at very few facilities in the UK. It has been said that this can help identify smaller deposits of cancer throughout the body and lead to a change of the treatment plan in a very significant number of men. It can't identify finely dispersed cancer cells and does not work on about 8% of men who do not express sufficient PSMA. There is at least one new scan being trialed that shows promise of finding smaller tumours.


"In summary, the Oxford PSMA symposium 2018 brought together clinicians from around the globe who share a common enthusiasm for PSMA-related technologies that promise to revolutionise prostate cancer management in the near future. Common themes included the use of PSMA in staging, therapeutics and intra-operative guidance. The message from our overseas guests, both European and Antipodean, was that PSMA-based imaging is increasingly part of routine care in the management of prostate cancer and definite benefits are seen, particularly in regard to accurate staging and identification of very early recurrence. While we in the UK are a little behind the curve when it comes to adoption of this increasingly established technology, we are hopeful of increasing the use of this technology in the NHS in order to rationalise appropriate treatment, reduce futile expenditure and ensure gold-standard management of men with prostate cancer."


The above is an extract from https://www.bjuinternational.com/bjui-blog/psma-at-the-cutting-edge-of-prostate-cancer-treatment-report-from-a-psma-symposium-convened-at-the-university-of-oxford/


Notwithstanding the foregoing, I think it unlikely that the present PSMA scans will be used much in most men initially but more where there is a suspected recurrence.  However, ongoing improvements in MRI are likely to provide more accurate staging.  My initial staging was upgraded from T2A to T3A after MRI.

Edited by member 09 Dec 2019 at 22:30  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
User
Posted 10 Dec 2019 at 11:38

Thanks Barry really useful info!

User
Posted 10 Dec 2019 at 22:45

Hey ,


Although advancements have been made in imaging in the last 10 years or so , it doesn’t necessarily mean those advancements are in the quality of imaging, for example it could be the acquisition time of scan in mri  or the radiation dose used to achieve the scan  In ct. Other advances would be the used of diffusion weighted imaging in MRI. 


prostate cancer goes to bones , bone mets could be picked up on a variety of imaging modalities - ct , mri and X-ray all show bone mets so there is little chance that even 10 years ago they would have been completely missed. 

I know all this because I am diagnostic radiographer it’s my job to know. But since jan 19 I am also the daughter of a dad with  prostate cancer with bone mets. Now that’s been a hard learning curve and a bitter one to swallow. My advice would be order the pack from here it’s really informative, join your local Maggies centre - my dad refused to go to the support group ( he now goes every week and has a wee group of new pals who phone if he doesn’t make a week to see he’s okay!)ha and use your local Macmillan contacts. 


good luck on your journey and remember to check it here 💕💕


 


Amy 

User
Posted 11 Dec 2019 at 03:15

Hi Amy,


I am sure I speak for all here in thanking you for doing a really vital job and your father will appreciate the support and encouragement you have provided.


I am aware that its not just the quality of the scan that is important but that there are other considerations and I have discussed this will top people in the UK and in Germany. When talking about scans with my consultant at UCLH he said that they did the best scans in Europe. I asked why this was so when other hospitals also had advanced scanners. I was told it had do with better sequencing. The Royal Marsden gave me an MRI using an Endorectal Coil but UCLH said they did not think this improved the scan so when I was transfered to them they repeated the MRI without the Coil. It would be interesting to learn your views on this. Also, when I had a Choline Pet scan at UCLH they said they believed I had cancer in an Iliac Lymph Node. Two other hospitals in the UK and my original RT Treating Hospital in Germany viewed the scan and opined that the size, shape and take up of Choline did not indicate Cancer. In fact a subsequent 68 Gallium PSMA scan showed instead that there was a very small tumour in my Prostate, subsequently confirmed by yet another MRI. So scan assessment can be subjective. Certainly, there have been cases where scans have not shown cancer that has spread because if for no other reason the concentrations are too small to be seen on MRI or indeed on some more recently introduced scans. There is an interesting report which says:- 'Professor Paul Workman, Chief Executive of The Institute of Cancer Research, London, said:


“Cancer imaging has been transformed in recent years – modern, sophisticated tools such as PET scans can unlock a wealth of information about tumours that could be used to diagnose, monitor and treat patients more effectively.


“This new assessment of evidence suggests that modern types of scan could allow doctors to identify metastases earlier and more precisely, increasing the chances of successful treatment.


“I am keen to see evidence-based use of these scans on the NHS as soon as possible, so that more patients can benefit from the advances we have seen in imaging technologies"


Extracted from:- https://www.icr.ac.uk/news-archive/call-for-hospitals-to-use-high-tech-scans-to-diagnose-prostate-cancers-when-they-can-still-be-cured


I must declare an interesst in scans having had 13 MRI's, + 1 for something else, 1 Choline Pet, 1 68 Gallium PSMA and more CT 's than I can remember starting with 5 in one week in Germany as part of setting up for IMRT+ Carbon Ions.


 


 

Edited by member 11 Dec 2019 at 03:24  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
 
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