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Urinary Incontinence with constant drip

User
Posted 15 Feb 2020 at 20:42

So I had robotic assisted radical prostatectomy 10/01/20.

I was doing pelvic floor exercises before surgery and after my supra pubic catheter was removed.  

I have urinary incontinence as to be expected but mine seems to be different to all those I have read about on the millions of web pages. Also it has worsened in the period since about two weeks after the catheter was removed.

Only stress incontinence and urge incontinence is mentioned. I don't think I have either of these. Rather I drip constantly from the time I get out of bed in the morning till I go back to bed at night. I am dry overnight. I get up for a pee about 3.30 and again about 6.30. Both times there is a normal flow. Then for the whole of the day I never feel the need for a pee. If I try to go then nearly always there's nothing at all but the leaking continues.

It was suggested that I might have a UTI since a urine dip showed traces of nitrate and blood. I had a course of anti biotics but no improvement and a lab test of my urine came back as normal.  

I will not be seeing my surgeon until 3 March for my first follow up and I have found it very difficult getting through to my designated Clinical Nurse Specialist.

Am I alone here or has anybody else having or had the same problem

User
Posted 16 Feb 2020 at 01:33
What you are describing is normal post-op incontinence. One sphincter that controls bladder function has been removed and the other may have been repositioned so your brain has to relearn how to stop the drip.

Stress incontinence is a different problem, caused by a weak or damaged pelvic floor. This is a problem that starts to become apparent later than where you are now.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 16 Feb 2020 at 08:41
No, you are not alone. It's early days yet, and I know it is difficult, but give yourself time to recover from the operation. As Lyn says, quite a lot of bits inside you have been rearranged and have to settle. Please add a note to this thread from time to time to say how you are getting on. Be strong.
Tony

TURP then LRP in 2009/2010. Lots of leakage but PSA < 0.1 AMS-800 Artificial Sphincter activated 2015.

User
Posted 16 Feb 2020 at 09:52
Make sure you have some supportive pants that will keep the old man pointing up even with a pad.

If everything is juggling about it won't help..

User
Posted 16 Feb 2020 at 11:04

Thank you all for your encouraging responses. I will try to keep positive.

Does the communication between the brain and the bladder repair itself gradually over time? Is there anything I can do to aid the process?  

 

User
Posted 16 Feb 2020 at 14:00
It does it by itself. The process is very similar to when a toddler is being potty trained; at first, the child needs constant reminders but eventually they start to recognise the signals and ask for the potty, as long as they are concentrating and not too tired. If they are tired or involved in a game, their brain doesn't recognise the signals and an accident happens. Over time, the brain picks up the messages even if they are absorbed in something else. Your brain is going through the same development.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 04 Mar 2020 at 13:04

An up-date on my post.

I had another meeting with the specialist physiotherapist. She confirmed that I was doing my pelvic floor exercises correctly and with the right frequency.

Yesterday I had my first follow-up appointment since my surgery (10 January). I had expected to see the consultant who did the operation but for some reason that could not be explained he was not around. So I saw a young registrar.

The good news is that the histology showed that the cancer had been completely removed with no trace of spread anywhere else. Pleased to hear it but with T2, N0 and M0  I would have been very  disappointed had there been a worse outcome.

There is still no improvement with my urinary incontinence. I took this up at my appointment yesterday but did not receive any encouraging response. Only the usual " everybody progresses at their own rate - be patient - will consider options after 12 months". This really does not make me feel any better. The doctor confirmed that I have "gravitational" incontinence.

I am hoping to drive down to the south of France shortly and am not looking forward to the logistics of keeping comfortable. Any suggestions? I leak just as much when I am sitting (as in driving) as I do standing and/or walking around. Is this usual or ,at least, common? I have spoken to a few people who have had incontinence problems and they were surprised that I was having issues while seated. Has anybody else same problem i.e. equally incontinent seated as standing/moving about?

I am trying to remain positive but it's not easy. 

User
Posted 04 Mar 2020 at 21:39

Your description sounds similar to where I was 6-7 weeks after the operation. Lying down no problem, sitting not bad, doing anything else leaks were constant.

However it slowly improved, with pad usage gradually getting down to one per day. That took several months! Unlike some lucky chaps on this forum I still get some leakage and need to wear a pad nearly four years later - the impression is that the sphincter gets "tired" and less reliable during the day depending on activities done.

That makes sense biologically. The internal sphincter (at top of prostate) which gets damaged during the operation is of the type of muscle which is particularly good at staying tight. The main function has to be taken over (via a learning process) by the external sphincter (part of the pelvic floor structures) which is a different muscle type capable of contracting faster but less good at maintaining that.

Good luck with your journey.

User
Posted 05 Mar 2020 at 16:56

Thank you J-B for your words of encouragement.

I went on a reasonably long car journey today. I had had no  feeling that I had been leaking but when I got home I was absolutely soaked. Still considering going down to France but I think I will have to stop every couple of hours for a pad change. 

You said you were not so bad sitting down. That's what I've heard from other people. I'm still desperate to hear if anyone else has or had the problem of leaking just as much (possibly more) sitting as standing and moving about. I hope I am not alone in this.

 

User
Posted 05 Mar 2020 at 20:20

Google Conveen sheaths, they are an external catheter and will definitely help for your journey down to France.

I was leaking quite a bit after surgery and used the sheaths when travelling. I'm now 5 months post op, dry at night and changing a couple of pads per day.

Make sure you are doing pelvic floor.

Good luck in your recovery.

User
Posted 07 Mar 2020 at 09:51

Thanks for that "The 1974" . Does the sheath work OK when sitting down in a car seat for a long time? I would have thought that gravity would be working against it. Also, what if you feel the need to urinate? Do you just let it rip? Can the sheath handle the force of the flow?

User
Posted 07 Mar 2020 at 10:11

Nairb

Assuming your bladder is functioning correctly there will still be a pressure build up. During normal activities I would stop and consciously have a wee through the sheath system. I found it difficult to urinate while seated and reclined the car seat or tried to straighten the body to urinate, fortunately I was nearly always in the passenger seat. An incorrectly fitted sheath can stick to itself below the penis, if this happens the urine can come out the wrong end of the sheath and you get quite wet.

Thanks Chris

 

Edited by member 07 Mar 2020 at 10:29  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 07 Mar 2020 at 11:07

Whilst driving i would lift my bottom up to straighten my body then urinate slowly, this seem to work for me and i never had any accidents. I would always check and move the sheath around to make sure it was free flowing and not kinked in anyway.

Coloplast will send you a measuring guide so you can get the best fit.

You can also cut the external catheter tube length to fit and ask for various sized bags.

Any further questions just ask.

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 15:24

I got my sample pack from Conveen yesterday and have given the system a try out today.

I had a bit of difficulty getting the sheath on. It's not much over the gland but has stayed on from 9.00 this morning till the time of writing- 14.40. Let's hope it stays on till I go to bed tonight.

I'm using the 500ml leg bag. I am wearing it on the right thigh and therefore found that I had to trim the tube almost completely. Is this normal?

I was surprised that in the first 3 hours of wearing I had leaked 300ml. Is this high or medium - I guess it's not light!! No wonder my pants/pads were pretty wet after 3 hours.

Following my meeting with the doctor on 3 March I emailed my Clinical Nurse Specialist Asking her if she could give me any information on the fact that my incontinence seems even worse when I'm sitting than it is when I'm standing/moving around as the doctor did not cover this. She came back suggesting that I should have a urine dip to test for a UTI. Déja vu all over again. I reminded her that that had been her advice over a month ago and that all the results had been negative.

She said she had passed my emails on to one of her colleagues who specialised more in incontinence. To my great surprise there was immediate action. The second nurse came back to me and told me that she was going to speak to my consultant/surgeon the next day. She then called me to say that the consultant had prescribed a 2 week course of Duloxetine. A 20mg capsule twice a day.

Has this worked for anyone? Looking at "the web" I learned that I should avoid alcohol and tobacco. I gather tat the alcohol is because the medication can make you drowsy. A couple of web articles said that smoking could reduce that drug's effectiveness by a third but these were written before Duloxetine was ever used to treat urinary incontinence.

What to do? I enjoy one small cigar a day. Am I going to have to give up this small treat. I guess it's only for 2 weeks (unless the course is extended).

 

 

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 15:31

Sorry, forgot to say that I have an appointment to see my consultant on 24 March. I will not have finished the course of Duloxetine by then and the information on the drug suggests it takes 2 to 4 weeks to start working. Still I look forward to seeing my consultant again. It will be the first time since my surgery on 10 January.  

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 17:17
I would add my reassurance that you are not alone in leaking, I could nearly have written what you have been saying about incontinence in your first post.

Yes, it does get better with time, but how much better varies dramatically from person to person. In the early days I was wearing a normal penis pad inside a bigger pad. This meant that when I leaked I could usually get away without needing to change my trousers as well as the pads, usually only changing the inside pad.

I had my operation at the end of May 2019 and I am still leaking. I have taken to weighing my pads to see how I am "improving" and over the past month my daily leakage has been varying between 35 and 161ml. Sometimes I can see no reason why it should be better or worse.

It was October, 5 months after the operation, before I could get away with only 1 pad sometimes. My average pad contents for October were 188ml. Average for February was 85ml but improvement is slow and frustrating. However, I can now get away with 1 pad most days and that, in effect, means that I can go where I want without worrying too much.

Good luck, you just have to be patient.

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 19:04

Thank you for your words of encouragement. 

I quite liked my experiment with the Coveen. However it fell off at 17.00. Fortunately I was at home. Half an hour later I would have been in the pub. That would have been embarrassing!

I will try another sheath on Saturday and try to fit it better. Maybe I should have specified an even smaller size!!

Edited by member 12 Mar 2020 at 19:05  | Reason: Predictive text!!

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 20:21

BEEN LEAKING FOR ABOUT FIVE/SIX YEARS , GO THROUGH 4/5 PADS A DAY TWO PADS AT NIGHT 
SOMETIMES I THINK DEATH WILL BE A WELCOME RELEASE, ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN THIS 

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 20:39

Barry I really feel for you. I don't know how to or what to say to make you feel less desparate. I guess you don't feel it but life is better than the alternative.

Have the medical people not suggested an AUS or anything else?

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 20:46

The Sheath shouldn't fall off if you ordered the correct size, might be worth checking You Tube for perfect fit requirements.

I am still wearing pads inside Depend pants which makes it easier to dispose/replace.

I know you've heard it all before but it really takes time to get better, i'm just over 5 months RP and still incontinent.

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 20:52

Could not get on with the Depend pants. They sagged when they got the least wet.

I find Tena Premium best. Often use in conjunction with Tena number 3 pads 

User
Posted 12 Mar 2020 at 21:00

Glad that works for you.

I also wear fixation pants combined with pads if i wanted to wear suit trousers/jeans.

User
Posted 28 Mar 2020 at 17:15

11 weeks on since my RP so time for an update.

Still leaking like a sieve but fortunately still dry overnight.

Managed to see my surgeon for the first time last week. I gather that when he did the Lymph Node Dissection he had to remove more tissue than he normally does and that this can have an adverse effect on regaining continence. I got the normal "It's still early days" and "Keep doing the exercises".

I have finished the 2 weeks course of 20 mg Duloxetine and he has started me on a 6 week course of 40 mg tablets in conjunction with a drug called Trospium Chloride.

Has anyone been on this combination and did it work?

Still experimenting with the Conveens. Have now got the longer ones. I find you have to use the Prep for good adhesion. Not sure that I trust them for a day out. Pads can be easily replaced. A malfunction with the Conveen would be immediately visible.

I hope everyone is coping during these extraordinary times we are living through.

Keep well and keep happy.

 

 

 

User
Posted 28 Mar 2020 at 19:01

Nairb

I am in a different situation to you but have tried most of the anti spasm meds. I found Trospium Chloride or Regurin XL 60 to be one of the better ones.

I still wore a pad with the conveen just in case of accidents.

Can you stop the flow of urine midstream ?.

Thanks Chris

User
Posted 30 Mar 2020 at 18:31
Yes, I can stop the flow of urine midstream. Why do you ask?

I never thought of wearing a pad with the Conveen. I would have thought that it would be a bit crowded down there!

I'm still having problems with the Conveen. I wear the thigh bag so the plastic tube is cut really short. I can't think how else to do it. The problem is that the tube can easily get a kink in it and the urine backs up and can force its way to the back of the sheath and/or loosen it. If it's pulled partially off, the kinking gets even worse.

I wish I could get on with the Conveens, but I don't think I will.

User
Posted 30 Mar 2020 at 20:00

Nairb

Being able to stop mid stream shows that the lower sphincter is operational. 

I used Tena 2 pads with the conveen, along with snug fitting briefs.

I had exactly the same issue as you with the conveens. I used a longer pipe and wore the bag lower down the leg , less chance of pulling on the conveen. Plain, not corrugated pipe may be better, amazing what you can do with super glue.

Thanks Chris

User
Posted 18 Apr 2020 at 15:26

Hi guys. Just logged into the forum this morning after an absence of almost 5 years!! I have now posted a possible non surgical solution to those with moderate incontinence where you are using more than a couple of pads a day. It's entitled Stress Incontinence Management. It's based on a sheath and modified thigh bag, and has worked brilliantly for me for the last year or so. May be worth a try.

I found that the sheaths that I first started using (Bard Clear Advantage Spirit Style 1) failed occasionally and then more frequently for some unknown reason. A chat with the suppliers suggested an alternative style 3 which has adhesive the full length of the sheath instead of only in the middle length. These have resolved the problem with no failures since I started using them about 8 months ago.  

 

 

User
Posted 18 Apr 2020 at 15:28

Hi there - Please see my post at the end of this thread. Also my post earlier today. Hope this helps

User
Posted 18 Apr 2020 at 17:29

Hi,

I've responded to your new post.

 

Thanks.

User
Posted 19 Jun 2020 at 17:33

Have now passed the 5 month anniversary of my RP. My incontinence is getting a bit better but I don't know if this is the medication I am (still) on or just the normal healing process.

Continence is now reasonably good (or at least at a level I can live with). The only exception is when I am playing golf. A Tena 2 only lasts 2 ½ hours or so. 

Any golfers out there who have the same problem?

 

User
Posted 19 Jun 2020 at 18:45
Have you seen a physiotherapist or been referred to a continence clinic? It sounds like you may be experiencing stress incontinence rather than any mechanical damage to the sphincter.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 24 Jun 2020 at 21:37

Yes, my consultant says I am experiencing stress incontinence and that is what the combination of drugs is meant to be treating.

I saw a specialist physiotherapist early in the proceedings and she confirmed that I was doing my PFEs correctly. I also completed a 3 day liquid in -liquid out recording.

I have not been referred to a continence clinic yet but my consultant said he would possibly do that after I had passed my 6 months milestone and if my continence was not improving.

The corona virus emergency has made follow on appointments a bit hit and miss.

Played golf today - not so much leakage as on previous occasions.

   

 

 
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