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questions about HT and its side effects

User
Posted 12 Mar 2022 at 22:14

I am just about to start Bicalutamide for one month...then injections of either Zoladex or Prostap ...before having High Dose Rate brachytherapy ...before 3 weeks of external beam therapy. I will then probably carry on with the Zoladex or Prostap for a couple of years. 

I think I am fairly well informed about all possible side effects but suspect that some will still take me by surprise. 

However I have recently thought a bit more about penis shrinkage and wonder what I could be doing (if anything) during these two years to reduce/minimise this. I have come across the term penile rehabilitation. What does this mean? I am guessing that maybe it is a good idea to somehow 'force' yourself to have some kind of erection at regular intervals? Maybe through the use of a vacuum pump thingy? Can you buy these or get them given to you by your GP? Or maybe it involves taking Cialis or something like that? 

Also - while I am here - does anyone have any thoughts on whether Zoladex or Prostap is preferable. My letter says they can be given on a 1 or 3 monthly basis. Who decides this and are there any pros and cons to either option?

Thanks in advance

L J

User
Posted 13 Mar 2022 at 16:55

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Unlike strong drink, HT taketh away the desire, but not the ability 😁. I certainly found that although I had absolutely zero desire for sex while on HT, I could still achieve an erection through manual stimulation.

Only around 20% of men on HT for a while can still get erections. There are things that can increase this figure such as using PDE5 inhibitors, using porn, using sex toys, etc. although no one has researched the extent to which these can help. None of these are likely to help with having sex with another person - only 5% of men on HT can manage that.

Dave, thanks for mentioning me, but I think the answers are already posted in this thread now. I wouldn't agree that "HT itself doesn't cause ED", because it does for most men, even if it's only a temporary effect while on HT. Maintaining penile health while you can't get natural erections is very important if you want things to work afterwards.

Edited by member 13 Mar 2022 at 16:57  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 25 Mar 2022 at 20:32

Sorry to hear all this, Chris. I wish you all the best, it must be so difficult, and you are still so young.

I'm very proud of Ian, because he has been through a lot, but has still managed to use the pump nearly every day through his time on HT. He is still on daily Cialis as well, and sometimes he uses the Muse cream, which has some effect, but as you say it will still be a long road. 

The depressing part was when the nurse at his last appointment said that he has a 50% chance of recurrence, something you don't want to know. Anyways, his PSA was not detectable at the last PSA test, which was great. Long may it continue...

User
Posted 12 May 2022 at 18:12
For some reason the site won't let me post a new conversation and so I thought I would just try replying to this one with my two questions!

1. I am due to have HDR brachytherapy on Monday followed 2 weeks later by 15 sessions of EBR. I am pretty read up on all of the possible side effects but just wonder if any members have had either or both of these treatments and can offer me any insider perspectives on what I could expect.

2. I also took Bicalatumide for a month and about 7 weeks ago had my first Prostap injection. I have read in a few medical journal articles that the HT increases the effectiveness of the treatment. However the evidence for this increased effectiveness was very convincing for HT for 4 - 6 months after the radiotherapy but much less convincing in terms of taking it for 2 year afterwards. Could anyone point me in the direction of some good evidence (I want something a bit more independent than just what a particular doctor said) to support the idea of taking it for 2 years as opposed to my plan to just have 2 more (3 month lasting) injections. I obviously want the best outcome for myself but at the same time want to know that what I am doing at some cost to my general psychological welfare is actually a necessary evil.

Any comments will be appreciated.

LJ 63

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User
Posted 12 Mar 2022 at 23:29

Hi LJ,

The treatment you describe is identical to mine. I was not forwarned about penile rehabilitation, and things would probably be a bit better for me If i had been. I do now have ED, but it is not constant and with blue pills I can manage something. Shrinkage has not made much of a difference perhaps lost half an inch.

I was on three monthly zoladex. I had no problems with this; prostrap may be just as good. You will want to be on three month doses, just to save the hassle of booking GP appointments. Possibly the first dose should be 1 month, just in case you had a reaction (which is unlikely)

I hope Andy62 will post regarding, penile rehab, he runs support groups and is probably the best source of such information on here.

If he hasn't posted in the next three days I will try and post his advice as best as I can remember it.

Dave

User
Posted 13 Mar 2022 at 02:24
The HT itself doesn't cause ED but if you don't keep the penis healthy, ED will happen later when your libido returns. Most, but not all, men lose their libido very quickly on HT which means not only that you don't feel randy when sexual activity is available but also you don't get all those random erections or semis during the day & night. This leads to atrophy - basically, the spongy tissue of the penis dies off and can no longer expand and engorge.

There are a number of ways to maintain penile health - using any erection that does occur, trying to get an erection even if you don't feel randy, using a vacuum pump on a daily basis, etc. Proper vacuum pumps are available on the NHS but it is a bit of a postcode lottery; in some areas they are only available to men who have had the prostate removed, in other areas they are not funded at all. It is worth asking your onco, specialist nurse and / or GP for a referral to the local ED / andrology clinic (if one exists in your area) and if not, then ask your GP whether s/he can / is willing to prescribe.

Re Prostap / Zoladex - some oncos have a strong preference .. others leave it up to the GP to choose. Some GP practices keep all men on the same HT so that the practice nurse is skilled in delivering the depot (which can be a bit of an art). If given the choice, the differences are:

- Zoladex is given in the stomach every 28 days / 12 weeks and should not be done more than 1 or 2 days early or late

- Prostap is given into the stomach or a large muscle such as the buttock or thigh; it is given every month / 3 months and there can be a little bit more flexibility with 3 or 4 days early or late if necessary (for example, if you are away on holiday)

- some doctors prefer Decapeptyl - this is given in the buttock every three months and is available as a 6 month (actually 24 weeks rather than 26) dose as well as 3 month or one month.

Usually, you get a one month dose the first time and then go to the longer dose; as D says, this is in case of a severe reaction. Worth checking whether you will be getting your injection / depot at the hospital or GP practice. Side effects are very similar for all three drugs.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 13 Mar 2022 at 10:04

Thanks Lyn and Dave. 

fun times ahead 😇😂😞

L J

User
Posted 13 Mar 2022 at 11:48
Hi LJ,

Unlike strong drink, HT taketh away the desire, but not the ability 😁. I certainly found that although I had absolutely zero desire for sex while on HT, I could still achieve an erection through manual stimulation. I tried to do so at regular intervals to keep things in working order during my HT.

Cheers,

Chris

User
Posted 13 Mar 2022 at 16:55

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Unlike strong drink, HT taketh away the desire, but not the ability 😁. I certainly found that although I had absolutely zero desire for sex while on HT, I could still achieve an erection through manual stimulation.

Only around 20% of men on HT for a while can still get erections. There are things that can increase this figure such as using PDE5 inhibitors, using porn, using sex toys, etc. although no one has researched the extent to which these can help. None of these are likely to help with having sex with another person - only 5% of men on HT can manage that.

Dave, thanks for mentioning me, but I think the answers are already posted in this thread now. I wouldn't agree that "HT itself doesn't cause ED", because it does for most men, even if it's only a temporary effect while on HT. Maintaining penile health while you can't get natural erections is very important if you want things to work afterwards.

Edited by member 13 Mar 2022 at 16:57  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 21 Mar 2022 at 16:35

Hi everyone,

It's been a while since I've posted here.

To recap- husband Ian was diagnosed with prostate cancer end of 2019, had his prostate removed in February 2020, and also had radiation in January 2021, and was on HT for 18 months. Ian had his last Prostap injection in November 2021, and is generally doing well, he does however often still get bouts of extreme fatigue, has still 0% libido. We know it can take a while for the body to get back to "normal" after HT. What are your experiences? On Wednesday, Ian will get his testosterone levels checked by the GP. Ian has also got high cholesterol, and has had tests and it is genetic in his case, so he has been exercising a lot and eating very healthily (with intermittent fasting), and has already lost some weight. I'm wondering if he is doing these things too early, and that's why he's getting very tired again.

On HT he was often quite tired, and got lots of hot flushes, which he still gets. His incontinence is a lot better, but it has taken a long time, with pelvic floor exercises, etc. It's been a rough 2 years, and we are both hoping things will improve steadily, it would be great to have some sort of sex life again!

User
Posted 21 Mar 2022 at 17:29

Hello Francine,

If last injection was Nov 21, then his HT treatment finished when that ran out, in Feb 22 (when he would have had the next injection, if he hadn't stopped).

In my case, nothing happened with Testosterone (stayed between 0.2 and 0.4nmol/l, well below castrate level) for 9 months after HT finished, and then it suddenly shot up over next 2 months to normal. This seems to be pretty typical from what I hear, with the recovery being sudden, and starting between 6 and 15 months after treatment finishes (probably more likely to be at the longer end of the scale the longer he was on HT). If your husband follows the same pattern as me, his Testosterone would return in Dec 22. However, even once you have normal Testosterone, it still takes a while for the body to recover. I'm 3-4 months in to normal Testosterone level, and I don't think my libido is back where it was, although everything does work again.

User
Posted 21 Mar 2022 at 17:30
I guess you were always on a curative path which is why Ian has had everything but the kitchen sink thrown at him. Hopefully you found a cure which is the main thing. His body has been through enormous amounts of strain and treatment and I suggest he’s not had time to maintain penile health or use Tadalafil or a pump ( especially with incontinence ). I think you may have a very long road ahead before proper sexual recovery occurs. I had my RP in 2015 but wasn’t offered a curative path so declined SRT. My psa was rising and had many scans but none of them showed anything. I was offered HT but declined that also despite the evidence mounting. It wasn’t until 2020 that scans showed multiple mets so I started HT then and it’s working well. I’ve been on it 15 months and have very few of the main side effects. Libido has fallen but still healthy. Erectile function still fine but I’ve lost the ability to reach orgasm mostly. I think the effects slowly grow worse and I’m stuck on it until I die now ( hopefully not too soon ). The general opinion is it takes as much time to recover as you were on the drug ie 18 months. But as previously said if he hasn’t maintained health down there then it could be hard to recover. But I wish you lots of luck and the cure !
User
Posted 25 Mar 2022 at 20:32

Sorry to hear all this, Chris. I wish you all the best, it must be so difficult, and you are still so young.

I'm very proud of Ian, because he has been through a lot, but has still managed to use the pump nearly every day through his time on HT. He is still on daily Cialis as well, and sometimes he uses the Muse cream, which has some effect, but as you say it will still be a long road. 

The depressing part was when the nurse at his last appointment said that he has a 50% chance of recurrence, something you don't want to know. Anyways, his PSA was not detectable at the last PSA test, which was great. Long may it continue...

User
Posted 25 Mar 2022 at 20:45

Ian really had a rough time on HT, very bad flushes (still gets them), feeling very tired at times, and also feeling yukky a lot of the time, still has some incontinence, so he deserves to finally feel better!  On top of that his mother has Alzheimer's, and my son has estranged himself from us a few months ago. Luckily we have a lovely house in Portugal where we can go to and escape from it all!

User
Posted 28 Mar 2022 at 18:14
I've been on Bicalutamide for just over two weeks had my first zoladex Jab today. So far no side effects other than emotionally, feel very low at times, mainly first thing in the morning. Activity helps, although have also felt quite depressed on some occasions. Not helped by the nurse who gave me my injection who gave me the leaflet out of box saying "I'll let you read about the side effects!" Then added "basically it turns you into a women!" Nice! just what I needed to hear!!
User
Posted 28 Mar 2022 at 18:33

Hello Les,

That's a terrible thing for her to say, and not supportive or accurate.

You're not far from the Luton and Dunstable Prostate Support Group - do feel free to join us. We are currently meeting up monthly in Dunstable Town Centre, and on Zoom.

User
Posted 30 Mar 2022 at 07:01
Thanks Andy. Although I'm in Herts my GP refer everyone to Bucks. So am being treated at Stoke Mandeville & Wycombe. My specialist nurse has tried to get me involved with the Aylesbury PCUK branch but it's seems to be 1-2-1 support & I would feel more comfortable as part of a group. If it's possible to connect with the L&D group I'll get in contact.

Many thanks

Les

User
Posted 30 Mar 2022 at 19:51

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Hello Les,

That's a terrible thing for her to say, and not supportive or accurate.



Serms a reasonably accurate summary to me. HT does cause the body to "feminise". Why do you think it's inaccurate?

Best wishes,

Chris

 

 

User
Posted 30 Mar 2022 at 21:18

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Thanks Andy. Although I'm in Herts my GP refer everyone to Bucks. So am being treated at Stoke Mandeville & Wycombe. My specialist nurse has tried to get me involved with the Aylesbury PCUK branch but it's seems to be 1-2-1 support & I would feel more comfortable as part of a group. If it's possible to connect with the L&D group I'll get in contact.

Yes, you're welcome to join. Whilst we are mainly patients at Luton and Dunstable Hospital, that's not a requirement and we have patients from as far away as Wales (although only attending via Zoom). We do both 1-2-1 and group support, whichever you prefer.

User
Posted 31 Mar 2022 at 17:22

Thanks Andy for your support. I'll be in contact 

User
Posted 31 Mar 2022 at 18:11
About the "turn into a woman" comments - I had Zoladex for 3 years including couple years (nearly) of enzalutimide and abiraterone (trial) and have to say that is what I described the effects as being like myself when asked. Pretty accurate in a way perhaps a bit blunt for some.

Peter

User
Posted 12 May 2022 at 18:12
For some reason the site won't let me post a new conversation and so I thought I would just try replying to this one with my two questions!

1. I am due to have HDR brachytherapy on Monday followed 2 weeks later by 15 sessions of EBR. I am pretty read up on all of the possible side effects but just wonder if any members have had either or both of these treatments and can offer me any insider perspectives on what I could expect.

2. I also took Bicalatumide for a month and about 7 weeks ago had my first Prostap injection. I have read in a few medical journal articles that the HT increases the effectiveness of the treatment. However the evidence for this increased effectiveness was very convincing for HT for 4 - 6 months after the radiotherapy but much less convincing in terms of taking it for 2 year afterwards. Could anyone point me in the direction of some good evidence (I want something a bit more independent than just what a particular doctor said) to support the idea of taking it for 2 years as opposed to my plan to just have 2 more (3 month lasting) injections. I obviously want the best outcome for myself but at the same time want to know that what I am doing at some cost to my general psychological welfare is actually a necessary evil.

Any comments will be appreciated.

LJ 63

User
Posted 12 May 2022 at 21:57

Hi LJ that was exactly my treatment. A general anaesthetic and a night in hospital. When I had the catheter removed the next day I couldn't piss so had another catheter put in. Not a massive problem, catheter was out within a week.

EBRT was easy. I took the two years of HT. I don't know of any research in to how long HT should be, if it is giving you problems then you should probably stop it.

Dave

User
Posted 13 May 2022 at 10:40

Thanks for your reply. Here's hoping for a similar outcome to you.

 

L J

User
Posted 01 Jul 2022 at 21:03
Hi guys/gals. I’ve just had my second dose of Leuprolide and find that my fatigue levels are now through the roof. I’m tired and almost breathless doing the most simple things (showering etc). I’ve also found that the problematic diarrhoea which was quite bad after the first injection has now increased to almost intolerable levels since the administration of the 2nd higher dose jag.

I’ve tried Loperamide capsules but sadly these don’t seem to be making much of a difference.

Anyone had any experience of this and if so is there any light I can look forward to at the end of the tunnel?

User
Posted 01 Jul 2022 at 22:16
As with most things , I think the drugs have a bigger effect at the start and then your body adapts to them gradually. I had bad fatigue at the start and am now 18 months in. I still feel the fatigue and maybe it has got worse in some ways , but I’ve just learnt to live alongside it. I still work damn hard on a farm but just less hours. And I’ve learnt for the first time in my life at 55 yrs old that there is nothing wrong with a quick nap when you need it. Stay active and don’t give in to it if you can. And keep your joints moving as muscle pain can catch up on you. Not sure about the diarrohea but I’ve had IBS for a while anyway. Keep strong
 
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