Alcohol (Ethanol) Mitigation or Complete Abstinence?

User

Posted 08 Jul 2022 at 20:31

I'm curious how many here went from moderate (or high) alcohol consumption to virtually none as a result of their PCa diagnosis versus how many have said the risk is worth the enjoyment of continuing to drink in moderation? More importantly, for those still drinking, I'm wondering if they are taking a supplement or combination thereof they chose specifically to offset the potential negative effect of drinking regarding PCa progression?

Some background: Cooking is my #1 hobby and as a result I really got into wine. I never had a "problem" with alcohol, in my 50's topping out at an average of 2 glasses of wine when cooking/eating dinner during the week and maybe some higher than average indulgence at an event/gathering (or some beers watching a game with the guys) a couple of weekends a month.

Alcohol and cancer (along with smoking) are kind of "no duh" issues. So the Integrative Medicine exports at two centers of excellence I consulted with were expectedly anti-alcohol. One said go from an average of 18 servings a week (2.5 servings a day) to 0-7 servings a week (0-1 a day). The other said 0-1 servings a week (basically one serving on a special occasion.)

I've been tracking my intake as I've cut back and frankly I'm struggling getting it lower than 10 a week. Having a glass or two of wine has sort of like been my daily evening "meditation." It's just been so ingrained in my lifestyle. I even started blending red wine so it's half mixed with non-alcoholic wine. The problem is the non-alcoholic wine tastes like crap and so it essentially makes paying for "real" wine a waste of money.

Research shows me that the main culprit of the negative effect of ingesting ethanol is acetaldehyde. When you drink alcohol, some of it converts to a metabolite called acetaldehyde, which is a highly reactive molecule that causes cancer through a variety of mechanisms. Acetaldehyde binds to DNA, causing mutations that can initiate cancer development. It produces reactive oxygen species (ROS) that lead to inflammation, promoting tumor development once a cancerous cell has formed.

The most referenced substance for combating acetaldehyde is N-acetyl cysteine (NAC). Oxidative stress combined with acetaldehyde causes a profound impairment of the body's natural antioxidant systems, by depleting stores of a compound called glutathione. Restoring cellular healthy glutathione levels, therefore, seems to be a natural strategy to prevent alcohol-related cancers.

Is anyone taking NAC in general? Is there any downside as it would seem wise if I'm still going to have a large glass of wine in the evening (or a couple at a social even), taking NAC at the same time may be wise.

User

Posted 08 Jul 2022 at 23:34

Well I don't think any food is good for you in the purest sense. As you digest them and metabolise them there will be waste products and toxins. Your body deals with them, and so it goes on for 70 or so years and eventually your body wears out and you die.

Some veg on balance is good for you, others like hemlock and deadly nightshade are bad for you. Similarly with meat and fish (be careful with Japanese blowfish: good, but sometimes deadly).

I am trained as a scientist and I can easily apply the scientific method to any simple physics or chemistry experiment, but there are some sciences to which you cannot apply the scientific method. Psychology is one, when you apply for a grant to leave a three month old baby in the woods to be brought up by wolves until the age of 18, some whining liberal on the ethics committee always objects. Weather and climate is another where you cannot conduct and test experiments, mainly due to the butterfly effect making the experiments non repeatable. Nutrition is another one, there are just too many variables. I'm not saying these psuedo-sciences have no value, but the predictions they make are unreliable.

I have just heard that oats used to be good for you but it turns out we grind them too finely so now they are bad for you. Eggs switch between being good for you or bad for you approximately once every decade since the 1950s. At the moment eggs are good for you. Of course the eggs aren't actually changing its the advice which changes not the food.

Now once in a while the evidence is incontrovertible, smoking is overwhelmingly bad for you. It does protect against Alzheimer's but that may just be because it kills you before you get that old.

So having set out my stall, I shall now give sage advice on how much to drink - as much as you want, but don't drive and don't operate heavy machinery whilst under the influence.

Dave

User

Posted 09 Jul 2022 at 18:08

I think the research data regarding dairy and prostate cancer is very strong but only relevant to young boys. There is also some data to indicate that cutting out dairy and muscle meat can help men with incurable cancer. BUT once you have PCa there is no evidence at all to suggest that dairy will make any difference to the success of your treatment or whether or not you will have a recurrence. The same applies to other cancers such as breast cancer. I cut all dairy and muscle meat out of John's diet when he was diagnosed but discovered that he was cheating whenever I went away 😂 so I gave it up as a bad job. He certainly consumes much less milk than before, swapped to soya milk and yoghurt years ago, but he does have a bit of cheese when he fancies.

He drank alcohol before and after his RP but was told in no uncertain terms to avoid it completely during RT and for 2 weeks after. No suggestion that he should avoid it for any longer than the 6 weeks.

The thing is, you already have a bum deal getting cancer - there has to be some pleasure in life otherwise what is the point of extending it as long as possible? On the other hand, too much dairy might mean you die too soon as a result of a heart attack .... all things in moderation perhaps?

Edited by member 09 Jul 2022 at 18:10 | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User

Posted 10 Jul 2022 at 00:04

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

I need to look up this fine ground oat Dave mentions as I eat a real lot of oats.

Here is the link. Short version fine ground oats increase blood sugar fast whereas whole oats take longer to digest.

https://youtu.be/tuQMUlDvFDE

Dave

User

Posted 13 Jul 2022 at 09:42

I had a very helpful telephone consultation with a member of the radiotherapy team yesterday, prior to my planning scan. Today is the start of taking laxatives in preparation, plus all the rest of the diet requirements.

What he told me was that they wanted the body tissues fully hydrated. That means that the drink prior to the scan works predictably to generate urine in exactly the same way each time; it doesn't some days go partly to tissues that need rehydration. To ensure the full hydration there is the requirement to drink 2 litres of water a day, and not be taking any diuretics. Caffeine and alcohol have (among other things) a diuretic action.

I found that a useful explanation - I am the sort of person that appreciates a rationale for what I need to do.

Show Most Thanked Posts

User

Posted 08 Jul 2022 at 21:46

I've never seen anything which ties alcohol consumption with prostate cancer. It certainly impacts some other cancers (mouth and upper GI tract, breast, liver, etc), as can any associated weight gain (which can make prostate cancer more aggressive).

However, I've never drunk, but still got it.

User

Posted 08 Jul 2022 at 22:26

Lived healthy all of my adult life. Drink little, have eaten a plant based diet for over 20 years, exercise a lot, gym, mountain biking, long distance walking. In my head I have done all the right things. But still got PCA.

Exercise, keep the weight off but keep enjoying life.

User

Posted 08 Jul 2022 at 22:54

It honestly never crossed my mind. I'm a moderate drinker - I probably average 10 units a week. I was advised to cut out alcohol during my RT, which I did, but I resumed my usual intake again afterwards.

Cheers,

Chris

User

Posted 08 Jul 2022 at 23:34

Some veg on balance is good for you, others like hemlock and deadly nightshade are bad for you. Similarly with meat and fish (be careful with Japanese blowfish: good, but sometimes deadly).

Now once in a while the evidence is incontrovertible, smoking is overwhelmingly bad for you. It does protect against Alzheimer's but that may just be because it kills you before you get that old.

So having set out my stall, I shall now give sage advice on how much to drink - as much as you want, but don't drive and don't operate heavy machinery whilst under the influence.

Dave

User

Posted 09 Jul 2022 at 17:46

I cut out drinking altogether for 6 months after I was diagnosed. The reasons were I woke up in the night very anxious after a few drinks. It was surprising that I didn't miss the alcohol so after the op I carried on with none at all until it had healed. By that time I was ready for a drink but keep it down to 2 nights and just a couple.

As Dave says above what is bad today is found to be alright tomorrow. Also a lot of information uses worst cases and extreme levels of consumption and you need to drill right down and use common sense to get to reality.

I keep seeing that dairy is mentioned as suspect for PCa cases and I very much enjoy cheese but now hardly eat it. I'll be so annoyed if they turn round and decide it's good. Also I need to look up this fine ground oat Dave mentions as I eat a real lot of oats.

Moderation is a good motto especially if in doubt.

User

Posted 09 Jul 2022 at 18:08

Edited by member 09 Jul 2022 at 18:10 | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User

Posted 09 Jul 2022 at 22:18

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

The thing is, you already have a bum deal getting cancer - there has to be some pleasure in life otherwise what is the point of extending it as long as possible?

I have to agree, that is my approach.

I hadn't come across any concerns about dairy (which wasn't the question of the OP) but alcohol has certainly come up in recommendations. While recovering from surgery it was clearly one of the things where too much was capable of exacerbating the problems suffered anyway from incontinence. Ditto caffeine, though I didn't seem to suffer much from tea - which was frustrating since you can buy much tastier decaffeinated tea than decaffeinated coffee.

In a few weeks I am facing radiotherapy, and the advice is to keep off alcohol as well as caffeine. I am unsure how rigorously I will keep to that, assuming there aren't obvious adverse effects. The only basis of the advice I can think of is to avoid irritation to the bladder, which is clearly going to be vulnerable after radiation damage. Or does anyone know of other alcohol-induced potential problems?

The idea of N-acetyl cysteine makes sense biochemically, but only if you are drinking so much that acetaldehyde becomes a problem. And I have never looked to see whether it is available to over-the-counter shoppers.

User

Posted 10 Jul 2022 at 00:04

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

I need to look up this fine ground oat Dave mentions as I eat a real lot of oats.

Here is the link. Short version fine ground oats increase blood sugar fast whereas whole oats take longer to digest.

https://youtu.be/tuQMUlDvFDE

Dave

User

Posted 10 Jul 2022 at 00:31

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Most oncology / radiotherapy teams will say no alcohol at all during RT although I know there are members here who had a glass of wine at weekends. The main issue is gas, which is the No1 enemy of pelvic radiation, and it slows down the emptying of the bowel although irritation to the bladder probably also comes into it.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User

Posted 10 Jul 2022 at 21:41

Thanks LynEyre.

It hadn't occurred to me that alcoholic drinks might promote intestinal gas - other than fizzy drinks which aren't necessarily alcoholic and have their effects at the top of the GI tract. I will see if I can find any more about that.

In my case I was thinking of that weekend situation, having a bit of a treat on Friday and Saturday evenings when there isn't an RT appointment next day. (Relevant to me because a significant wedding anniversary happens in the middle of my planned course of RT, and we will have lots of family over to help celebrate).

User

Posted 10 Jul 2022 at 21:53

Beer obviously creates gas. Most wine is fermented with yeast - it interacts with enzymes in the stomach to produce gas - the high sugar content also contributes to this. You could hunt out some yeast free wine ... or just have a couple of glasses .... or stick to spirits!

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User

Posted 11 Jul 2022 at 12:55

Fortunately, due to certainty of high cost, apart from other risks like becoming alcohol dependant or increased risk of other cancers etc. I have almost totally cut out alcohol. There was a time when I drank Drambuie but as I cut out or drastically reduced sugar, I found this much too sweet. Very occasionally when family members meet, I will have a glass of wine. Never liked beer or larger much though in my sporting days enjoyed a larger/shandy after matches. I didn't like it much initially but have got to like Welsh's Purple Grape Juice but generally am happy with various squash or far more mugs of decaffeinated tea with soya milk but without sugar. Most importantly, because it can lead to cancers and puts toxins into the body, I stopped smoking in my mid twenties due to adverse publicity and seeing back stage exhibits of lungs of smoker beside those of a non smoker. Financial saving like winning lottery!

Oh yes, limit myself to one decaffeinated coffee with very little sugar each day.

Edited by member 11 Jul 2022 at 13:24 | Reason: Not specified

Barry

User

Posted 13 Jul 2022 at 09:42

I found that a useful explanation - I am the sort of person that appreciates a rationale for what I need to do.

User

Posted 12 Mar 2023 at 18:21

Well, I've been taking one Pomegranate Extract capsule (Ellagic Acid) for every drink I have. I can tell you one thing, at a party I had 3 drinks and normally I'd wake up tired and felt completely normal so they do have an effect.

Notification

Join the online community now.