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The Thin Blue Line RP vs RT

User
Posted 13 Aug 2022 at 18:35

Like a lot of recently diagnosed souls, the choice is difficult. In my case T2, N0, M0. 101 cc prostate, 49 cores following a MRI which detected a suspicious area eventually identified as PC as 2 cores positive. Gleason 4+3. Low volume tumor approx 13 mm. Bone scan negative. Default as with most is RP or RT. Had a very sterile ( telephone) consultation with the oncologist who appeared to be reading from a standard script, emotionless… , they went on to read out a scroll list of side effects and then advised 6 months of HT followed by 20 sessions of EBRT. 
surgeon has not clarified if nerve sparing but lesion is near ish to apex. Have asked  for referral to UCLH to discuss focal options although gut is tell me that this may be futile but exploring all options before pressing the nuclear button. At 61 thinking which is better but having researched a lot on line better does not necessarily exist , but more or less favourable option is a more realistic term I suppose. Having a Choice often makes having to choose impossible 

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 03:36

With a 101cc Prostate I think it very unlikely you will be offered focal therapy. Indeed, your large Prostate also means some types of radio therapy would not be given. Nevertheless UCLH may opine that one of the treatments you have been offered may be better from a clinical viewpoint in your case, although your decision will also need to take side effects into account. If you had EBRT, it could make it more difficult to surgically relieve any pressure on your Urethra that goes through your Prostate should this become a problem in due course, which is more likely with a large Prostate. So you could ask about this.


There is also the usual question to be asked on whether nerve bundles on one or both sides be likely saved in your case.


Do let us know what is said and what you decide.

Edited by member 14 Aug 2022 at 04:21  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 20:14

Worth asking the question for sure as I do recall the surgeon saying to me before I made my decision to opt for surgery that if my prostate was much larger they would have to shrink it first.


Based on what I know now and how things have progressed (really well in fact) I have to say I would have done nothing differently. I initially went on AS for 3 months after my first biopsy found cancer as it was low grading ( 2: Gleason 3+4=7), was in just a small part of the prostate and was contained within the capsule. After undergoing another PSA test   some  3 months (September 2021) after my first diagnosis  and  the hospital finding that my PSA had increased from 5.74 in April to 6.01, the  decision was then made for me to have another biopsy. That found that although the grading was exactly the same the cancer was throughout my prostate (but still contained within the capsule). I was advised to consider treatment and after deliberating for several weeks plumped for surgery. When the prostate was removed it was cut and spliced and although the Gleason score was still the same it was found that some of the cancer though still within the prostate was starting to bulge out. If I had left it much longer to have had treatment then it is very likely that the cancer would have spread and surgery would not have been such a viable option.


Returning to your question, with hindsight when I first got tested in 2018 when I was 60 ( I had no symptoms but had read that the likes of Michael Parkinson, Billy Connolly, Stephen Fry, Jools Holland, Rod Stewart, Ben Stiller had all been diagnosed with prostate cancer and were urging men to get tested) and it was found that my PSA was 3.58 I should not have left it another 3 years before getting tested again. Leaving it as I did could have resulted in a different outcome to the one I have now.


 


Ivan


 

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 21:04

No problem and good luck with whatever your propose to do.


 


To pick up on the point you raised, Gleason 4+3=7 means that more of the cancerous cells they found were 4 rather than 3. In my case,  more of the cancerous cells were 3 rather than 4, with fewer than 10% of the cancerous cells found being graded 4. My main lesion was 15 mm so quite a bit bigger than yours.


 


Since around 1 in 5 men 40 & over have evidence of prostate cancer and most men of 60 have it and with many men not even knowing they have it and dying of something else it is for most of us that are diagnosed early enough highly treatable.


 


Ivan

User
Posted 15 Aug 2022 at 00:11

3 months of HT does normally shrink whole prostate down to 2/3rds it's starting size.


6 months of Finasteride or Dutasteride (for if you just have BPH, and not cancer) does much the same.


I would imagine the prostate would eventually grow back if you stopped these treatments, but possibly much slower than it shrunk.

Edited by member 15 Aug 2022 at 00:13  | Reason: Not specified

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User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 03:36

With a 101cc Prostate I think it very unlikely you will be offered focal therapy. Indeed, your large Prostate also means some types of radio therapy would not be given. Nevertheless UCLH may opine that one of the treatments you have been offered may be better from a clinical viewpoint in your case, although your decision will also need to take side effects into account. If you had EBRT, it could make it more difficult to surgically relieve any pressure on your Urethra that goes through your Prostate should this become a problem in due course, which is more likely with a large Prostate. So you could ask about this.


There is also the usual question to be asked on whether nerve bundles on one or both sides be likely saved in your case.


Do let us know what is said and what you decide.

Edited by member 14 Aug 2022 at 04:21  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 07:20

Many thanks Barry, am I also correct in assuming that the 6 months of HT shrinks  the prostate amongst other things but this is temporary and it grows back to large size eventually ( after the RT) making any issues of BPH return or requiring treatment to alleviate should it become a problem? Whereas RP technically deals with both PCa and BPH obviously….

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 18:13

Sorry to read that you have also joined the club


 


Everybody is different in the way they react to treatment but I was a similar age to you with a similar diagnosis (Gleason 3+4, PSA 6.01 before surgery) and for a number of reasons, all listed on my profile and in my narrative, chose surgery.  My understanding is that your prostate would have to be shrunk if you chose surgery as an option (mine was 51 cc and within the extraction limits). If interested my history and journey can be found under my name.


 


Ivan

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 18:39

Thanks Ivan, consultant never mentioned shrinking the prostate but will enquire further hopefully when I have the options consultation. If there’s one thing you would have done differently as a lesson learnt following diagnosis, what would it be or not….

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 20:14

Worth asking the question for sure as I do recall the surgeon saying to me before I made my decision to opt for surgery that if my prostate was much larger they would have to shrink it first.


Based on what I know now and how things have progressed (really well in fact) I have to say I would have done nothing differently. I initially went on AS for 3 months after my first biopsy found cancer as it was low grading ( 2: Gleason 3+4=7), was in just a small part of the prostate and was contained within the capsule. After undergoing another PSA test   some  3 months (September 2021) after my first diagnosis  and  the hospital finding that my PSA had increased from 5.74 in April to 6.01, the  decision was then made for me to have another biopsy. That found that although the grading was exactly the same the cancer was throughout my prostate (but still contained within the capsule). I was advised to consider treatment and after deliberating for several weeks plumped for surgery. When the prostate was removed it was cut and spliced and although the Gleason score was still the same it was found that some of the cancer though still within the prostate was starting to bulge out. If I had left it much longer to have had treatment then it is very likely that the cancer would have spread and surgery would not have been such a viable option.


Returning to your question, with hindsight when I first got tested in 2018 when I was 60 ( I had no symptoms but had read that the likes of Michael Parkinson, Billy Connolly, Stephen Fry, Jools Holland, Rod Stewart, Ben Stiller had all been diagnosed with prostate cancer and were urging men to get tested) and it was found that my PSA was 3.58 I should not have left it another 3 years before getting tested again. Leaving it as I did could have resulted in a different outcome to the one I have now.


 


Ivan


 

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 20:39

Similar situation


4.5 in  2018.


4.2 in 2019


6.0 in 2020


7.2 in 2022


in 2018 consultant advised biopsy, but I refused…misguided research on my part which indicated  that psa size sometimes correlated with large prostate, mental denial trying to avoid the inevitable. In 2018 I was Likert 3. Finally bit the bullet in June, but part of me admits what if I acted sooner. The probability is that the biopsy may not have the same results. In a perverse sort of way as it it appears to be low volume the likert  4 changes that showed up this year meant that it was picked up. Hate to think that I could have done 49 cores without picking anything up but the fact that it was picked up in two does depress a little bit those two naughty cores is initially this action.
I am 4+3, I presume this means one core was graded at 4 and the other at 3 but they have to grade the most aggressive first, It said MCL was 2mm for both . Can’t dwell on past but look towards the future I guess. Thanks for your information and encouragement .


 

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 21:04

No problem and good luck with whatever your propose to do.


 


To pick up on the point you raised, Gleason 4+3=7 means that more of the cancerous cells they found were 4 rather than 3. In my case,  more of the cancerous cells were 3 rather than 4, with fewer than 10% of the cancerous cells found being graded 4. My main lesion was 15 mm so quite a bit bigger than yours.


 


Since around 1 in 5 men 40 & over have evidence of prostate cancer and most men of 60 have it and with many men not even knowing they have it and dying of something else it is for most of us that are diagnosed early enough highly treatable.


 


Ivan

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 21:12

I would say you have made a fine judgement call and probably got it right. You have managed to avoid treatment for four years, and it doesn't look like the cancer has advanced to a troublesome stage and now you will get treated.


 

Dave

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 21:18

In my field it’s called “just in time ” but maybe more luck than sober judgement perhaps.

User
Posted 14 Aug 2022 at 23:20

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member


Many thanks Barry, am I also correct in assuming that the 6 months of HT shrinks  the prostate amongst other things but this is temporary and it grows back to large size eventually ( after the RT) making any issues of BPH return or requiring treatment to alleviate should it become a problem? Whereas RP technically deals with both PCa and BPH obviously….



The HT is to shrink the tumour(s) within the Prostate, I don't think of itself HT will significantly shrink the actual Prostate, although loss of Testosterone may help stop increae in size.  Increasing Prostate size is a natural part of ageing although it happens to a greater extent in some men than others.  Some men are diagnosied with very enlarged Prostates but do not have cancer but due to pressure on the Urethra or for otherr reasons they need treatment to reduce the Prostate size/pressure.  From what I have read one way of doing this is by drugs but not HT.

Barry
User
Posted 15 Aug 2022 at 00:11

3 months of HT does normally shrink whole prostate down to 2/3rds it's starting size.


6 months of Finasteride or Dutasteride (for if you just have BPH, and not cancer) does much the same.


I would imagine the prostate would eventually grow back if you stopped these treatments, but possibly much slower than it shrunk.

Edited by member 15 Aug 2022 at 00:13  | Reason: Not specified

 
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