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User
Posted 11 Sep 2022 at 20:15

Hi,saw my gp recently and  he said it's a waste of time  me doing weight training without any testosterone, I already knew that but didn't need him to  say that, but he has referred me for a dexa scan because of upper and middle back pain could be osteoporosis with low body weight, made no gains with weight training, any thoughts please. 

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 10:10

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Hi,saw my gp recently and  he said it's a waste of time  me doing weight training without any testosterone, I already knew that but didn't need him to  say that, but he has referred me for a dexa scan because of upper and middle back pain could be osteoporosis with low body weight, made no gains with weight training, any thoughts please.

He is talking out of his stethoscope. I have been lower T most of my life and still managed to lift when I was younger. My T is low normal now and even my mid 50's, post RP and RT/HT I am lifting and getting improvements under the flab (the real mid life enemy). This supports my position - https://ergo-log.com/building-muscles-without-testosterone.html

As always, so your own research for effect and safety but, the following does work for many, even older ones like me:

Low(er) carb diet / intermittent fasting. Healthy eating with less carbs and fasting has a positive impact on metabolism.

Mix HIIT and steady cardio  - HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training), with the emphasis on Intensity, is a bigger metabolism boost than steady cardio but should not be done more than a few times per week.  Add steady cardio for endurance.

Lifting - low weights, high reps gives hypertrophy style gains with volume over power. High weights, low reps gives more strength with denser muscle. In either case, growth needs to be incremental, adding small amounts of weight. You won't see physical progress at first, as most early gains are neurological (CNS recruitment). The latter is better for metabolism, overall health and natural T level improvements. There are many different lifting programs to achieve this, all a search away.

You can't half a** it. Find something that suits you and you can sustain. Set goals and work to them. The only way to improve is to stick with it and push through the mental blocks. You will hit improvements plateaus. Back off, rest, and then come back at it, dialing back the weights if you need to.

The big caveat is that if you are zero T due to HT then start really small and be realistic about expectations, but there will be improvements. however small, if you work at it. No improvements will happen if you do not.

There is also some research that suggests that lifting reduces cancer risk, and the added bone density is a good long thing for old age .

This is the way - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazUZz3K6IY

Edited by member 12 Sep 2022 at 10:16  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 11 Sep 2022 at 20:15

Hi,saw my gp recently and  he said it's a waste of time  me doing weight training without any testosterone, I already knew that but didn't need him to  say that, but he has referred me for a dexa scan because of upper and middle back pain could be osteoporosis with low body weight, made no gains with weight training, any thoughts please. 

User
Posted 12 Jul 2024 at 21:04

Hi Big Simon

I had hormone therapy and radiotherapy and kept lifting weights for the first half of the treatment. I stopped for about three weeks whilst the side effects took hold but then started again. I would think you would need a longer break for the prostatectomy because it is a surgical procedure. It's really important to keep up your fitness before and after. I go to a trainer on a 1:1 basis but have also developed a good resistance circuit at home based on what I do with him. Whatever treatment you decide on, you must take charge of your own fitness and well-being. 

All the best for your treatment and recovery. Your Gleason score and symptomless diagnosis are the same as mine but you are 14 years younger so the surgery may be more appropriate.

User
Posted 12 Jul 2024 at 22:32

Hi Simon,

Both Prostatectomy and HT/RT have side effects, but if you go down the HT/RT route, there is nothing to stop you continuing with your exercise regime during treatment, as long as your body doesn’t object. You might get fatigue, but I would strongly advise you to do as much weight bearing exercise as possible to avoid muscle loss and joint ache.

If you have surgery I would speak to the surgeon for advice on this. The guys I know who went down this route were told to lift nothing heavier than a kettle for 6 weeks, and then to slowly increase their exercise. Some people seem to recover quickly, others take much longer…. perhaps it’s down to how fit you are before going in for surgery. Some would get extremely fatigued if they overdid things on a particular day, then feel shattered for several days after. The thing to remember is that although it’s robotic keyhole surgery, your insides are taking a real battering, and you need to allow time for your body to heal.

Good luck with your decision.

Derek

User
Posted 13 Jul 2024 at 09:15

Statistically, RP and HT/RT have very similar outcomes but you are right that hormone therapy can reduce muscle mass and bone density. There is loads of research that shows that resistance training can avoid this and as you are an experienced weight trainer you are ideally positioned.

A really good prostate doctor to follow on You Tube is Mark Scholz who explains all this very clearly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE61HSAsFb0

I only started weight training when I started on the HT but I feel so much better for doing it and will now continue for the rest of my life.  I am now 6 months after diagnosis, one month after RT ended and still on HT and feel as well as I ever have.

It seems to me that you have exactly the right mindset to get over your treatment, whichever one you choose.

 

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User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 03:55

Hi,

I think that statement by your gp is not necessarily correct and is counter-productive to a positive mindset on your part . I'm no expert but I have exercised all my life and can comment from my own experience but everyone is different.

Even with Testosterone there are many people that struggle to progress with weights and some need heavy exercise while others do better with lighter high reps. One other thing you do need though is sufficient protein in your diet , sometimes quite a high level for some people.

Another thing to consider is that although you may struggle to progress as much as you would like at least you may not regress as much as you could.

Personally I think exercise is a very important part of maintaining positivity and general health while dealing with prostate cancer.

See what the scans reveal, listen to the medical advice but then also consider what you feel best doing with regard to general health and wellbeing.

Personally I am 4 months post orchidectomy and I am maintaining exercise levels using running, cycling and weight training. Its inevitable that it will get harder but important to maintain activity. 

Regards

John

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 07:12

I agree with Chevy though I did get some advice early on, suggesting that what is needed is to work with heavy weights and a small number of repeats. Inevitably it's disappointing. I think now that a larger number of repeats with smaller weights achieves more. Think 20 repeats of a weight you're comfortable rather than 6 to 8 with a weight that tests your limits.

I don't agree with your GP. Inevitably we lose some strength with zero testosterone but add no exercise to that and you go backwards twice [not a scientific figure 😀] as fast.

Irun, a member who was here before I joined got into distance running with great success.

Everything helps, even walking.

 

Jules

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 07:34
I'm curious why it's a waste of time? Women do weight training and they have no testosterone!

Best wishes,

Chris

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 10:10

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Hi,saw my gp recently and  he said it's a waste of time  me doing weight training without any testosterone, I already knew that but didn't need him to  say that, but he has referred me for a dexa scan because of upper and middle back pain could be osteoporosis with low body weight, made no gains with weight training, any thoughts please.

He is talking out of his stethoscope. I have been lower T most of my life and still managed to lift when I was younger. My T is low normal now and even my mid 50's, post RP and RT/HT I am lifting and getting improvements under the flab (the real mid life enemy). This supports my position - https://ergo-log.com/building-muscles-without-testosterone.html

As always, so your own research for effect and safety but, the following does work for many, even older ones like me:

Low(er) carb diet / intermittent fasting. Healthy eating with less carbs and fasting has a positive impact on metabolism.

Mix HIIT and steady cardio  - HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training), with the emphasis on Intensity, is a bigger metabolism boost than steady cardio but should not be done more than a few times per week.  Add steady cardio for endurance.

Lifting - low weights, high reps gives hypertrophy style gains with volume over power. High weights, low reps gives more strength with denser muscle. In either case, growth needs to be incremental, adding small amounts of weight. You won't see physical progress at first, as most early gains are neurological (CNS recruitment). The latter is better for metabolism, overall health and natural T level improvements. There are many different lifting programs to achieve this, all a search away.

You can't half a** it. Find something that suits you and you can sustain. Set goals and work to them. The only way to improve is to stick with it and push through the mental blocks. You will hit improvements plateaus. Back off, rest, and then come back at it, dialing back the weights if you need to.

The big caveat is that if you are zero T due to HT then start really small and be realistic about expectations, but there will be improvements. however small, if you work at it. No improvements will happen if you do not.

There is also some research that suggests that lifting reduces cancer risk, and the added bone density is a good long thing for old age .

This is the way - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazUZz3K6IY

Edited by member 12 Sep 2022 at 10:16  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 13:26

Thankyou everyone I will carry on lifting weights to keep me as strong as I can without testosterone,but it's embarrassing with being only 8 stone I have always been thin even worse with no testosterone. Thanks.

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 15:23

Stressing bones is particularly important when you don't have Testosterone as part of a regime to maintain bone strength and help stave off osteoporosis. This can be done by weight lifting, and/or putting shock through bones by stamping, jogging, or walking. When you have no Testosterone, you additionally need Vitamin D3, usually calcium supplements, and more recently Vitamin K2 is also suggested. You need to run these all past your doctor because there are other conditions for which each is not permitted (and you might even get them on prescription).

By the way Chris, women do have Testosterone, similarly to men also having estrogens. Both are essential to both sexes, but the levels and ratio are different for men and women.

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 15:28

No worries.

You really need to dig into the diet side as well as the exercise to get more muscle weight.

Also look up dynamic tension exercises.

P

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 15:29

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
usually calcium supplements,

A note of caution, there are some papers out there that suggest Calcium may feed cancer growth.

Recommend further reading on this.

P

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 16:33

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
I'm curious why it's a waste of time? Women do weight training and they have no testosterone!

Best wishes,

Chris

 

My thoughts too Chris. I do quite a lot of weights in classes and other training sessions and I have a lot less testosterone than men.

Radar you should only be feeling proud and not embarrassed at all! After what a lot of you guys are going through yet you still get off your bums and go to the gym and lift weights….well I think it’s just fantastic as I’m sure many others at the gym do too. All the best going forward x

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 18:41

Defo keep up with the weights. Weight Training has many positives. Body and mind.

User
Posted 12 Sep 2022 at 20:30

Thanks, I do weight training at home, I would get laughed at walking into  a gym I am underweight and like a skeleton with no testosterone, I have to wear more clothes to look a bit bigger, I have asked for some testosterone and  be monitored but no,cheers.

User
Posted 14 Sep 2022 at 15:14

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Thanks, I do weight training at home, I would get laughed at walking into  a gym I am underweight and like a skeleton with no testosterone, I have to wear more clothes to look a bit bigger, I have asked for some testosterone and  be monitored but no,cheers.

 

TBH you are unlikely to be even glanced at. First off, most people are too busy to care and secondly, the person not built like Thor who turns up and works hard deserves more respect than gym bros.

 

User
Posted 14 Sep 2022 at 18:21

I will second what ProstatePete said. No one cares what you look like. They are too busy getting done.  I have been going to the gym regularly for over 25 years. There are very few Arnold Schwarzeneggers. Decent gyms have a staff who are more than helpful. They will also set an exercise program suited to all abilities.

User
Posted 05 Oct 2022 at 11:03

Sheffield University are doing a trial into the effects of exercise and training to improve recovery from prostate cancer. It is called Stamina 

User
Posted 31 Mar 2024 at 21:26

Thank you for this very useful thread. I was diagnosed with T3a PCa in January and now on HT with RT due in the Summer, I have started working with a personal trainer doing weights and cardio twice a week. I did this from age 17-32 as a rower but am now resuming at the age of 73! After only five sessions I definitely feel stronger and am keen to maintain muscle strength and bone density that HT diminishes, and will keep going until the RT starts.

Have others continued training through RT or is that too tiring to contemplate doing gym work at the same time?

There have been scientific trials into  resistance training for PCa patients undergoing HT treatment and the benefit is unambiguous. It is really important to avoid injury so get help from a qualified instructor and never feel embarrassed to use a gym - all shapes and sizes are there in harmony!

User
Posted 31 Mar 2024 at 21:41

hi Barry,

I made the mistake of giving up the gym during RT and I think it was a big mistake,  contributing to my joint problems now. I would continue doing as much as you can during RT. Personally I didn’t get tired during RT and had lots of energy,  but did mostly walking with some resistance exercise at home. When you think about it the gym is quite a good place to be during RT because if you require an urgent toilet visit you’re going to be close by. I had a couple of embarrassing episodes out walking.

Good luck with your treatment,

Derek

User
Posted 31 Mar 2024 at 22:09

With the normal caveat that everyone is different, you will probably find that the HT has a bigger (negative) impact on your performance than the RT . I kept running throughout what turned out to be 2 years of HT, and my RT. I also  added weight and resistance work which I have continued with, even though my testosterone has now recovered. Overall, my performance has declined a bit, but I'm sure it would have been even more pronounced without the exercise. Quite apart from the physical effects of a bit of physical effort, don't underestimate the emotional benefits of feeling that you are doing something to take back a bit of control....

So- definitely carry on!  

User
Posted 31 Mar 2024 at 23:11
John continued with the gym 5 days a week and was also playing rugby so rugby training twice a week.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 01 Apr 2024 at 06:23

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Have others continued training through RT or is that too tiring to contemplate doing gym work at the same time?

Hang in there. As Derek says, it's the slog through HT [and RT] that's mentally and physically tough. The more you can do during your treatment, the easier it will be when you're out the other side and on your way back to normality, whatever that is.

Jules

Edited by member 01 Apr 2024 at 06:24  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 01 Apr 2024 at 12:52

There is some great stuff in this thread, and Prostate Pete pretty much covers all the technical stuff as I understand it. I run (outside) and do circuits (at home) on alternate days. I am definitely in much better shape mentally and physically than I would be if I did no exercise.  That’s enough for me. It’s not to look good, it’s not to impress anyone, it’s not to be fitter than anyone else -  it’s to help me get by and carry on as best I can, and that is all we are trying to do. Every time you go to the gym/do some weights/go for a walk, or whatever, you are better for doing so and should give yourself a pat on the back. 

User
Posted 01 Apr 2024 at 15:46

Many thanks for these very helpful and supportive messages. As well as the physical benefits of strength training, the notion of taking control of these aspects is very important psychologically.

User
Posted 12 Jul 2024 at 20:14

Can anyone here tell me how soon after radical prostatectomy they were able to lift weights again.

I'm trying to decide on treatment 🤔 after diagnosis yesterday.  Would hate to lose too much strength and fitness for too long (or worse still, forever).

Thanks 

User
Posted 12 Jul 2024 at 21:04

Hi Big Simon

I had hormone therapy and radiotherapy and kept lifting weights for the first half of the treatment. I stopped for about three weeks whilst the side effects took hold but then started again. I would think you would need a longer break for the prostatectomy because it is a surgical procedure. It's really important to keep up your fitness before and after. I go to a trainer on a 1:1 basis but have also developed a good resistance circuit at home based on what I do with him. Whatever treatment you decide on, you must take charge of your own fitness and well-being. 

All the best for your treatment and recovery. Your Gleason score and symptomless diagnosis are the same as mine but you are 14 years younger so the surgery may be more appropriate.

User
Posted 12 Jul 2024 at 22:32

Hi Simon,

Both Prostatectomy and HT/RT have side effects, but if you go down the HT/RT route, there is nothing to stop you continuing with your exercise regime during treatment, as long as your body doesn’t object. You might get fatigue, but I would strongly advise you to do as much weight bearing exercise as possible to avoid muscle loss and joint ache.

If you have surgery I would speak to the surgeon for advice on this. The guys I know who went down this route were told to lift nothing heavier than a kettle for 6 weeks, and then to slowly increase their exercise. Some people seem to recover quickly, others take much longer…. perhaps it’s down to how fit you are before going in for surgery. Some would get extremely fatigued if they overdid things on a particular day, then feel shattered for several days after. The thing to remember is that although it’s robotic keyhole surgery, your insides are taking a real battering, and you need to allow time for your body to heal.

Good luck with your decision.

Derek

User
Posted 13 Jul 2024 at 05:35

Thanks Barry and Derek,

You're making me reconsider RT.

I've updated my bio with my latest thinking on all this.

Thanks again 

Edited by member 13 Jul 2024 at 05:36  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 13 Jul 2024 at 09:15

Statistically, RP and HT/RT have very similar outcomes but you are right that hormone therapy can reduce muscle mass and bone density. There is loads of research that shows that resistance training can avoid this and as you are an experienced weight trainer you are ideally positioned.

A really good prostate doctor to follow on You Tube is Mark Scholz who explains all this very clearly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE61HSAsFb0

I only started weight training when I started on the HT but I feel so much better for doing it and will now continue for the rest of my life.  I am now 6 months after diagnosis, one month after RT ended and still on HT and feel as well as I ever have.

It seems to me that you have exactly the right mindset to get over your treatment, whichever one you choose.

 

 
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