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Still Jumping hoops to get HIFU Treatmentt

User
Posted 16 Apr 2023 at 17:01

Hi everyone,A


Apologies for going missing in action way back end Feb/early March in my ever persistent quest for HIFU Treatment.  I now know it is non-existent in both NHS and the Private sector in Scotland due to lack of Funding for Training/Equipment, whilst increasingly being used in some NHS hospitals in England. It is apparently first choice of Treatment for 'contained' Prostrate Cancer all over Europe; USA; Canada and Australia. Using analogy of 'Breast Cancer' it is a Laser that does a 'Lumpectomy' rather than a Surgical 'Mastectomy' (or in my case Prostatectomy)


I've had to go Private, and to cut  very long story short, NHS Scotland's MRI Scan and PSA Test results didn't appear to match up. My new Consultant suggested I have PSMA PET Scan, GP suggested by NHS Scot. however NHS Consultant refused. After a lot of research, I went down to Newcastle had it done Privately and PET Scan showed a PSMA 'hotspot' on my ribs, at least caught it early! Good news is PC can be treated by HIFU now awaiting date I fly down to Birmingham for Treatment. Will discuss 'hotspot' with Consultant at that time.


Has anyone else been diagnosed or heard about a PSMA 'hotspot' can't find much info on it. Should I be worried or not?


Scott P.


 


 

User
Posted 20 Apr 2023 at 01:03

Hi Everyone


Thank you all for your thoughts on my 'Hotspot', I've given them all serious consideration.


I chose a 'Belt and Braces' approach and had an appt with my GP to discuss it further. He was of the opinion that as my Private Consultant was one of the UK's most imminent Cancer Urologists and most experienced in HIFU Treatment, he would not even be considering HIFU Treatment of my Prostrate Cancer if it was not contained.  I asked if he would indulge me and have an Oncologist give his/her opinion, which he agreed, giving them access to my PSMA PER Scan and Report.


I received a phone call this afternoon advising me that Cancer is contained and Oncologist regarded 'hotspot' as being irrelevant. His opinion was to focus on having HIFU Treatment to remove Cancer whilst still contained as there was no spread to ....... (I lost track as he listed the various areas that were clear of Cancer, I just felt relieved). My post op care will be given by nhs to save me flying back down south.


I've had a further two Consultations with Members of the Private Consultant's Multi-Disciplinary Team this week which has been reassuring, they are going to arrange for my Pre-Op Assessment to take place at a Private Hospital in Scotland to save me flying down south. The day following the procedure I may be asked to stay in a local Hotel for a few more days and then checked over prior to flying home. So they certainly are very thorough!


Scott P.

User
Posted 25 Apr 2023 at 16:13
Hi Everyone
I'm still on my HIFU journey, and Life has the added dimension of Zoom Consultations with various members of the MDT, a further two planned for next week plus a pre-op assessment at the Spire in Edinburgh to save me Flying south just for pre-op assessment.
Claret you appear to be spot on when referring to the PSMA Scans they show up all sorts.

I do have to confess Lyn I did find your post on 17th April in respect of the 'hotspot' somewhat ominous -
"I don't think you have fully grasped the situation."
That certainly raised doubts in my mind not to mention my anxiety levels! With red flag raised I sought out a second and THIRD opinion, which put my mind at rest.
I think others may concur the minute you're diagnosed with 'Cancer' Anxiety Level becomes part and parcel of life.
The only knowledge I had of Prostrate Cancer Treatment was my Father in Law; Father; two Brothers and now my own over a 35 year period and realised the exact same NHS Treatment had not changed in Scotland as it had in other parts of UK and most certainly in other countries, so thought I'd try the much less invasive HIFU and see how that goes.

Apologies Lyn I think I may have mistaken your position on this Forum, I had presumed you were the Online Prostrate Cancer Nurse, but now I'm thinking you possibly are a relative who is offering her own insight and support? Perhaps you could clarify to avoid any future misunderstanding by anxious Forum participants like myself?

Scott P.



User
Posted 16 Apr 2023 at 22:52
Thanks Lyn and Andy for your concerns.
I did do my research on HIFU speaking to a Oncologist at London College Hospital who had personally had the Treatment. I also looked at best Urologists in UK as voted by other Urologists and the Consultant I chose was at Birmingham Cancer Clinic inThe Spire Hospital who was in the top ten and one of the most experienced doing HIFU.
My daughter, a Doctor in France, sought out info on Prostrate Cancer Treatment in Europe as did relatives in USA plus my GP was of the opinion only lack of Funds has stopped NHS Scotland providing this treatment which in recent years has improved greatly since its early days with better Training for Consultants.
The Consultant I chose discussed my NHS PSA blood test results/MRI Scan at the weekly MDT and it was decided that HIFU Treatment couldn't take place until there was certainty that my cancer was contained within the Prostrate.
The PSMA PET Scan did confirm Cancer was only in one area of Prostrate and it was contained. Consultant mentioned PSMA 'hotspot' but didn't elaborate merely saying something about "PSMA membrane ..... insignificant at this point, Treatment if PSA levels increase'.

Since learning of this I've been doing my own research and it appears it's not uncommon for such a 'hotspot' to show up. Some Consultants take a 'wait and see if PSA increases' view, whilst others do Rads on 'hotspot' at an early stage. I just keep thinking if I'd stuck with NHS this ' hotspot ' would have gone unnoticed since my NHS Consultant refused to refer for a PSA PET Scan. I have now arranged appt with my GP to discuss next way forward and request a change of NHS Consultant Urologist Oncologist and go down the NHS route in respect of this hotspot.
I do appreciate others views particularly anyone who has experienced being diagnosed with a 'hotspot'.
Scott P.
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User
Posted 16 Apr 2023 at 19:02
I hope that your HIFU specialist is acting in your best interests and not just chasing the cash. A hotspot indicates metastasis to the bone, too advanced for HIFU to be considered sensible or likely to be successful.

Just to correct one of your statements - HIFU is not the treatment of choice for contained PCa - the only place you would see that is in a HIFU specialist's marketing material. HIFU is a reasonable option for men who have a very early cancer which would otherwise be suitable for AS (but the patient doesn't want AS).
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 16 Apr 2023 at 20:04

I don't believe any NHS MDT (Multi-disciplinary Team) would offer HIFU as a primary treatment if there might be mets. You really need that investigated first. There's no point having HIFU unless it's being done with a curative intent.


One common (but not universal) issue with private treatment is that it sometimes doesn't include any MDT, so you don't have urologists, oncologists, radiologists, focal therapy specialist, etc all together in a meeting, discussing what's best for you.

User
Posted 16 Apr 2023 at 22:52
Thanks Lyn and Andy for your concerns.
I did do my research on HIFU speaking to a Oncologist at London College Hospital who had personally had the Treatment. I also looked at best Urologists in UK as voted by other Urologists and the Consultant I chose was at Birmingham Cancer Clinic inThe Spire Hospital who was in the top ten and one of the most experienced doing HIFU.
My daughter, a Doctor in France, sought out info on Prostrate Cancer Treatment in Europe as did relatives in USA plus my GP was of the opinion only lack of Funds has stopped NHS Scotland providing this treatment which in recent years has improved greatly since its early days with better Training for Consultants.
The Consultant I chose discussed my NHS PSA blood test results/MRI Scan at the weekly MDT and it was decided that HIFU Treatment couldn't take place until there was certainty that my cancer was contained within the Prostrate.
The PSMA PET Scan did confirm Cancer was only in one area of Prostrate and it was contained. Consultant mentioned PSMA 'hotspot' but didn't elaborate merely saying something about "PSMA membrane ..... insignificant at this point, Treatment if PSA levels increase'.

Since learning of this I've been doing my own research and it appears it's not uncommon for such a 'hotspot' to show up. Some Consultants take a 'wait and see if PSA increases' view, whilst others do Rads on 'hotspot' at an early stage. I just keep thinking if I'd stuck with NHS this ' hotspot ' would have gone unnoticed since my NHS Consultant refused to refer for a PSA PET Scan. I have now arranged appt with my GP to discuss next way forward and request a change of NHS Consultant Urologist Oncologist and go down the NHS route in respect of this hotspot.
I do appreciate others views particularly anyone who has experienced being diagnosed with a 'hotspot'.
Scott P.
User
Posted 16 Apr 2023 at 22:56
Thanks Lyn and Andy for your concerns.
I did do my research on HIFU speaking to a Oncologist at London College Hospital who had personally had the Treatment. I also looked at best Urologists in UK as voted by other Urologists and the Consultant I chose was at Birmingham Cancer Clinic inThe Spire Hospital who was in the top ten and one of the most experienced doing HIFU.
My daughter, a Doctor in France, sought out info on Prostrate Cancer Treatment in Europe as did relatives in USA plus my GP was of the opinion only lack of Funds has stopped NHS Scotland providing this treatment which in recent years has improved greatly since its early days with better Training for Consultants.
The Consultant I chose discussed my NHS PSA blood test results/MRI Scan at the weekly MDT and it was decided that HIFU Treatment couldn't take place until there was certainty that my cancer was contained within the Prostrate.
The PSMA PET Scan did confirm Cancer was only in one area of Prostrate and it was contained. Consultant mentioned PSMA 'hotspot' but didn't elaborate merely saying something about "PSMA membrane ..... insignificant at this point, Treatment if PSA levels increase'.

Since learning of this I've been doing my own research and it appears it's not uncommon for such a 'hotspot' to show up. Some Consultants take a 'wait and see if PSA increases' view, whilst others do Rads on 'hotspot' at an early stage. I just keep thinking if I'd stuck with NHS this ' hotspot ' would have gone unnoticed since my NHS Consultant refused to refer for a PSA PET Scan. I have now arranged appt with my GP to discuss next way forward and request a change of NHS Consultant Urologist Oncologist and go down the NHS route in respect of this hotspot.
I do appreciate others views particularly anyone who has experienced being diagnosed with a 'hotspot'.
Scott P.
User
Posted 17 Apr 2023 at 01:15
I don't think you have fully grasped the situation - sorry.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 17 Apr 2023 at 16:30
I was told by UCLH that they would not do HIFU if it was outside the Prostate but contrary to their reading of a Choline scan, a PSMA scan showed the supposed cancerous Iliac Node was clear. So I did get my HIFU and some 15 months on I have been told I am in remission by the top Focal Expert in the UK. However, I don't see why a man can't have HIFU and then if a spot of cancer is found elsewhere, have this treated with radiation. After all, this is what happens if a spot or up to 3 is used to tackle such spread after Prostatectomy. I think it is more due to NHS policy.

I would also query whether Focal Therapy is used anywhere near as much in the USA (where Cryotherapy is the most used form of Focal Therapy) than Prostatectomy or Radiation.. In mainland Europe there would be more men receiving Focal Therapy than in the UK, particularly with France using the French Ablatherm for HIFU but still far less used than Prostatectomy or Radiation of various types. Having said that, appropriate Focal Therapy for suitable men is becoming used more frequently in the UK and this trend is expected to continue. It is not only important that this 'hot spot' is more widely understood but also that cancer within the Prostate can be dealt with by the contemplated HIFU, although it can be treated by further HIFU, Salvage Prostatectomy or Radiation if too big a job for initial Focal Therapy. The final decision is for the patient but a major consideration is what experts in their field feel they can achieve.
Barry
User
Posted 17 Apr 2023 at 18:16

Even if the patient does have a possible single small metastasis elsewhere in the body (requiring separate attention) I don't see the harm in HIFU or other ablation treatment in order to kill the 'mother ship' ?

User
Posted 18 Apr 2023 at 00:15

If I had this diagnosis, my thinking would be along the following lines...


The chances of a single met is quite small. Most likely, it's either not a met, or there will be more micro-mets (mets too small to show up on scans). So it's very important to get it investigated first as far as possible. A second opinion on the PET scan might be useful, as might some other form of more detailed imaging of the location (such as CT or MRI).


If it's no longer thought to be a met, then a focal therapy could be considered if the known cancer in the prostate is within the parameters for a focal therapy.


If it is thought to be a met, you are a high risk patient as it's already spread. Micro-mets in and around the prostate are a significant risk (which is where it would most likely spread first). I would be looking to do radiotherapy of the prostate, seminal vesicles, and pelvic lymph nodes, to take out the 'mother ship' of the cancer as you put it, and any micro-mets spread to the most likely locations. This would also come with hormone therapy. That is likely to be available on the NHS, as it's a fairly common treatment for high risk patients. Then I would be looking for SBRT (focused/stereotactic radiotherapy) on the known met. This doesn't have a high cure rate, but even when it doesn't cure, it's beneficial in putting off further treatments. This is unlikely to be available on the NHS - it's only available on the NHS if the met isn't discovered until after the initial radical treatment has been performed. (Yes, I know this restriction doesn't make much sense). However, you could probably pay for this privately, or if you are being treated at a main cancer centre which also does research in these areas, you might be able to persuade them to give this a go on the NHS on the basis that the standard NHS imaging done before this procedure would not have found it.


You really need to talk this all through with a competent oncologist with a wide range of experiences.

User
Posted 18 Apr 2023 at 20:05

Would it be worth getting a biopsy of the rib to see if it is a met? Have you ever injured your rib as I believe injuries can cause PSMA to flash?


if it is a met then  SBRT  to both it and the prostate is worth discussion  with a radio oncologist. I don’t think a urologist should be advising if this is a met. 

User
Posted 18 Apr 2023 at 21:58
Repairing fractures can cause a flag on a bone scan but not on a PSMA scan
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 18 Apr 2023 at 22:51
User
Posted 20 Apr 2023 at 01:03

Hi Everyone


Thank you all for your thoughts on my 'Hotspot', I've given them all serious consideration.


I chose a 'Belt and Braces' approach and had an appt with my GP to discuss it further. He was of the opinion that as my Private Consultant was one of the UK's most imminent Cancer Urologists and most experienced in HIFU Treatment, he would not even be considering HIFU Treatment of my Prostrate Cancer if it was not contained.  I asked if he would indulge me and have an Oncologist give his/her opinion, which he agreed, giving them access to my PSMA PER Scan and Report.


I received a phone call this afternoon advising me that Cancer is contained and Oncologist regarded 'hotspot' as being irrelevant. His opinion was to focus on having HIFU Treatment to remove Cancer whilst still contained as there was no spread to ....... (I lost track as he listed the various areas that were clear of Cancer, I just felt relieved). My post op care will be given by nhs to save me flying back down south.


I've had a further two Consultations with Members of the Private Consultant's Multi-Disciplinary Team this week which has been reassuring, they are going to arrange for my Pre-Op Assessment to take place at a Private Hospital in Scotland to save me flying down south. The day following the procedure I may be asked to stay in a local Hotel for a few more days and then checked over prior to flying home. So they certainly are very thorough!


Scott P.

User
Posted 22 Apr 2023 at 01:02
Hi Lyn,
As much as I respect your opinion as one of Prostrate Cancer's Medical Practitioners, I am pretty sure that my diagnosis from one of UK's most imminent Urologists specialising in Prostrate Cancer + his MDT, and having received a second opinion from a Senior NHS Oncologist, neither would make their diagnosis without due care, especially as they had the benefit of having both my MRI Scan and PSMA PET Scan in front of them which you obviously have no access to. Therefore, on this occasion I am more inclined to follow their diagnosis in respect of what they can see, and of course their many years of experience as Senior Consultants and have chosen to follow their guidance on my Treatment.
But thank you anyway for your professional guidance and support.
Scott P.
User
Posted 22 Apr 2023 at 08:51
I am not doubting the specialists in your case at all. My concern was that you might not have fully understood what they are telling you. As your GP has pointed out, a reputable consultant would never agree to an inappropriate treatment just because the patient is paying; they would be struck off if it was discovered.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 25 Apr 2023 at 16:13
Hi Everyone
I'm still on my HIFU journey, and Life has the added dimension of Zoom Consultations with various members of the MDT, a further two planned for next week plus a pre-op assessment at the Spire in Edinburgh to save me Flying south just for pre-op assessment.
Claret you appear to be spot on when referring to the PSMA Scans they show up all sorts.

I do have to confess Lyn I did find your post on 17th April in respect of the 'hotspot' somewhat ominous -
"I don't think you have fully grasped the situation."
That certainly raised doubts in my mind not to mention my anxiety levels! With red flag raised I sought out a second and THIRD opinion, which put my mind at rest.
I think others may concur the minute you're diagnosed with 'Cancer' Anxiety Level becomes part and parcel of life.
The only knowledge I had of Prostrate Cancer Treatment was my Father in Law; Father; two Brothers and now my own over a 35 year period and realised the exact same NHS Treatment had not changed in Scotland as it had in other parts of UK and most certainly in other countries, so thought I'd try the much less invasive HIFU and see how that goes.

Apologies Lyn I think I may have mistaken your position on this Forum, I had presumed you were the Online Prostrate Cancer Nurse, but now I'm thinking you possibly are a relative who is offering her own insight and support? Perhaps you could clarify to avoid any future misunderstanding by anxious Forum participants like myself?

Scott P.



User
Posted 25 Apr 2023 at 20:09
PCUK doesn't provide any professional health input on the forum. If you click on an avatar you can read that member's details - we are almost all patients or family members / friends. There are a handful of professionals who are forum members but it is rare that any post professionally - my husband's urologist is a member and I can see that he has logged in fairly recently but it is some years since he last posted.

I don't think you did understand everything you were being told - sorry if that caused you a panic but:
- it is a prostate not a prostrate
- prostate cancer can be contained and also metastatic
- you asked whether anyone else here had had a hotspot. I replied saying yes, lots of men on here have had hotspots and in almost all cases this is a euphemism for mets. Perhaps what you meant to ask was 'is there anyone here who had a PSMA hotspot that turned out not to be cancer?'
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard
User
Posted 26 Apr 2023 at 00:14

PCUK I assumed would be similar to 'Breast Cancer Now' which my wife found very helpful during her Breast Cancer Treatment last year. It has a Breast Care Now Facilitator monitoring and occasionally posting on the various areas of the Forum. If a Forum member asks a particular question and no one replies or posts a concerning reply, the Facilitator can pop in and signpost the Forum member to either relevant info on another area of the website or to an actual B.C. Nurse who can offer advice. This is a really useful addition to a Forum.

That does not however negate the excellent support offered on this Forum from others also journeying along this Cancer Trail, just as long as everyone is aware advice offered is NOT from a Medical Practitioner, but is a personal opinion.

Scott P.
User
Posted 26 Apr 2023 at 10:19

This group is moderated to the extent of enforcing the rules, particularly no naming clinicians, no spam, etc, but not at a clinical level. What does make this group good is that although it's peer-to-peer support, there are enough members in this forum with a very good knowledge of prostate cancer, most treatments, current trials, etc. that the information given is to a very high standard, and anything incorrect is quickly corrected.


There's a large UK facebook support group too (not as many members as here). However, it doesn't have as many expert patients. Not having subject headers for threads (something facebook has talked about but never implemented), not having easy access to find relevant older threads, and not having the individual profile/bio does make facebook less suitable, and the effect is lots more threads talking about the same issues again and again, which gives the appearance of being more active, although less efficiently so because useful information posted a while back becomes lost.

User
Posted 26 Apr 2023 at 11:17

There are of course the specialist nurses with whom members can get in touch for general opinion. However, PCa is such an individualized disease, only your own consultants who have access to the histology, tests and scans are in a position to give specific personalized advice to a patient and even they may disagree occasionally or be less certain, so that a further professional opinion may be sought but from an expert who has the same full information on the individual. I have said on a number of occasions on this forum that somebody should not expect for example that the treatment result they have or their suitability, will necessarily be the same as another, even with what may seem to be a similar diagnosis. Also, outcomes of members here which are relatively small compared with the number of procedures/treatments done, may not be truly representative, So best information comes from official statistics, although these are generalised with a range and an individual could be at either end of predicted outcomes and looking backwards several years so usually not modified to take recent advances into account.

Edited by member 26 Apr 2023 at 15:59  | Reason: additional words.

Barry
 
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