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Advanced stage 4 cancer - diet during chemotherapy

User
Posted 26 Jul 2023 at 15:24

My dad (age 59) is due to start on chemotherapy next week (cancer has spread to bones including spine, ribs, sternum, shoulder, hips).

He wants to throw everything at it and has a lot of faith in using diet as a tool.

He has been on a ketogenic diet (originally only meat but now including vegetables and eggs), and is considering things like intermittent fasting. 

I think there might be something to the fasting, as there seems to have been some research done that says it helps in combination with chemo. I am not so sure about keto, as prostate cancer seems to metabolise fats rather than carbs/sugars and keto seems like a bit of a fad at the moment.

I am also a bit worried he is not getting enough energy/nutrients which he will need for going through treatment and that this diet might not help much and take some enjoyment out of life. Cutting out healthy fruits and whole grains also seems counterintuitive.

Has anyone had any experience with any of these diets/regimes for stage 4 cancer? Have they helped?

Thank you so much!

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 07:10

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
(As a personal aside, I tried to persuade my G.P. and my Urologist to prescribe me Metformin, but they wouldn't agree!).

One of the leading specialists in the UK on male health, who's also a diabetes and hormone therapy specialist, said at a recent presentation to a local support group he would put all men on hormone therapy onto Metformin and a statin as a matter of course, just to directly counter the reduction in insulin sensitivity and increase in cholesterol (metabolic syndrome) which loss of Testosterone causes, which is why hormone therapy increases cardiovascular events.

There is still the ongoing Metformin arm of the STAMPEDE trial, although that had a different aim - to see if Metformin reduces recurrence, so not relevant to Stage 4. This arm hasn't reported yet.

I did talk with my oncologist about Metformin right at the beginning and he said he thought it was a good idea, but he couldn't prescribe it, and said ask my GP. I asked my GP, and he was happy to prescribe it given my oncologist thought it was a good idea, saying it was cheap, and very unlikely to do any harm if used by a non-diabetic (chance of hypo is apparently low in a non-diabetic), so I was on it. (I think my GP is also the practice's diabetic specialist, so probably knows more about Metformin than many other GPs.) The only slight problem this causes is whenever a clinician sees you're on Metformin, they assume you are diabetic, which I had to correct many times. After an operation, I found bruises on most of my fingertips, which was because they were doing blood glucose finger prick tests all through the operation to make sure my blood glucose stayed normal, thinking I was diabetic. Also some people can't take Metformin because it causes them bowel problems.

User
Posted 31 Aug 2023 at 00:02

Hi Mark, 

I’m sorry to read you have joined the G9 club.

David takes a mixture of medications and supplements. Vitamin D, Vit B12, omega3 1000 mg, grass fed adrenal cortex 500 mg, garlic, Tumeric & ginger 1380 mg, evening primrose oil 1000mg, B17, Magnesium malate1600 mg, pomegranate extract 10,000 mg, K2 200ug, CoQ10, Ginger root, Betaglucans, Rosemary exreact, Turkey tail mushroom extract. Cider vinegar, hot lemon juice, and super green vegetable drink.


The Care Oncloogy Clinic prescribe, metformin, menbedazole, doxycycline, statins. 
David is also on  HT Prostap injection every three months. 

His original treatment was HDR Brachytherapy, 25 sessions of RT & three years of Prostap. He was initially diagnosed in 2015.

He was then diagnosed with stage 4 two years ago. This is when we started reading and looking beyond traditional treatments. 

This sounds and reads like an awful lot, and it is!

I’ve also read a book called ‘Your Forth Choice’ it’s about a fruit called PawPaw. 

Our diet is chicken X2 weekly Fish, lots of fresh home grown veggies, fruit, very limited or no sugar, red wine and the occasional pint of real ale. 
He does eat cheese and Greek yoghurt sometimes. 

I did a lot of reading, and decided we’d give this dammed cancer a run for its money.

The Care Oncology Clinic have been very good, they are not NHS 

David’s initial treatments were not NHS but he has both private & NHS consultants. 

We also have a GP friend who is very alternative, who has advised us as well on supplements.

Once we got our heads around it the daily regime has become quite easy, he takes them and we just get on with our lives.

David does get some pains, and these are mostly managed by exercise, we have rowing machine, it really helps. 
We manage an acre of garden,grow our own veg, he sings and plays every day. 
We tend to spend summers at home and holiday in winter…. Though after the debacle over the bank holiday I’ll be booking hols in the UK 😉

Please feel free to ask questions I’ll do my best to answer them. 

Leila. 

 

 

 

 

User
Posted 02 Sep 2023 at 00:40
Thank you so much for this Leila,

That is really helpful.

Jane M is doing a talk in Warwick next Thursday which we are going to to see what else we can find out..

I think they have spaces left if you fancy it although I do think she is doing talks all over the country too! Here is the link

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/strategies-to-starve-cancer-with-jane-mclelland-w-tickets-693960152497

Best wishes

Mark

User
Posted 26 Jul 2023 at 20:51
Dad should check with the dietician in the chemo department before making any changes
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 08:18

Interesting, David is on metformin, statins an anti parasitic and an antibiotic all prescribed by his non NHS oncologist, he’s been on this regime now over 18 months. No significant side effects, apart from some fatigue which he puts down partly to bring 73,he also has the standard HT from his NHS oncologist alongside these meds. 
He takes  a list of supplements as well, his current PSA is <0.1 stage 4 Gleason 9 Tb3. He was diagnosed September 2015. We read Jane McLelland did her course and followed her diet and supplement advice. 

Leila 

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 10:09
By no means an expert, but from what I understand chemotherapy can be quite a draining experience. Your father may benefit from maintaining his energy levels with a good balanced diet. I wouldn't have thought it would be a good time for dietary restriction.

There is also the possibility he might find some foods less palatable due to the drugs, or causing intestinal upset. Probably best to have a flexible approach to ensure energy levels are maintained.

User
Posted 03 Sep 2023 at 15:09

Thanks Dave, I really appreciated your response. Yep, there are definitely some snake oil sale people out there, sadly I include some of the pharmaceutical companies in this. I don’t have a scientific background, but I’m used to reading papers on various subjects for my sins. 
Chinese medicine, herbalists and many alternative plants herbs and potions have been available and used since time began. 
I am aware how much these gigs Jane Mclelland is putting on  cost, she probably isn’t making a great deal, but I agree £65 may be beyond the reach of some people and that is very sad. Diet isn’t the main tenure of her protocols, it is very varied, you actually might enjoy reading it 😉

My view is still look at all the options available, make yer choices and enjoy life.

once again thanks, I’m now planning on not getting burnt at the stake as a witch. 

Leila 

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User
Posted 26 Jul 2023 at 19:38

Hi Joanna123,

I cannot answer your questions with regard to Stage 4 Prostate Cancer.  However, you might have heard of a book called "How to Starve Cancer" by Jane McLelland.  It is available on Kindle, as well as in print.  The first part of the book is very much about her own personal journey with cancer (cervical and lung cancer).  The second part is focused on the diet, so you could skip to part 2.

Her diet is quite complicated, and she also advocates using some cheap old drugs (e.g. Metformin, which is for Diabetes), which have apparently shown promise in early trials but have not been pursued as standard treatments.  She is also big on vitamin and mineral supplements and on gut microbes.  Interestingly, some of her recommendations follow the advice of Dr. Michael Mosley, who has written numerous books on healthy eating (but not specific to cancer).  They are both big into polyphenols (e.g. Broccoli, Blueberries. Pomegranates) as well as Turmeric mixed with Black Pepper.

Jane McLelland is also in favour of intermittent fasting (twice weekly), as is Dr. Mosley.  She also states that, although most cancers utilize sugar as their primary fuel source, prostate cancer uses fat and protein more, so it would seem that she would not recommend the Atkins Diet (?).    

I have read recently that eggs promote white-blood cell generation, so that should help with the immune system.  However, you would need to check that none of her recommendations go against the advice of the medical team, especially during the chemotherapy treatment phase (although Jane McLelland has had chemo.).

(As a personal aside, I tried to persuade my G.P. and my Urologist to prescribe me Metformin, but they wouldn't agree!).

I hope you will get fuller answers from other contributors.

Best wishes,

JedSee.

User
Posted 26 Jul 2023 at 20:51
Dad should check with the dietician in the chemo department before making any changes
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 07:10

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
(As a personal aside, I tried to persuade my G.P. and my Urologist to prescribe me Metformin, but they wouldn't agree!).

One of the leading specialists in the UK on male health, who's also a diabetes and hormone therapy specialist, said at a recent presentation to a local support group he would put all men on hormone therapy onto Metformin and a statin as a matter of course, just to directly counter the reduction in insulin sensitivity and increase in cholesterol (metabolic syndrome) which loss of Testosterone causes, which is why hormone therapy increases cardiovascular events.

There is still the ongoing Metformin arm of the STAMPEDE trial, although that had a different aim - to see if Metformin reduces recurrence, so not relevant to Stage 4. This arm hasn't reported yet.

I did talk with my oncologist about Metformin right at the beginning and he said he thought it was a good idea, but he couldn't prescribe it, and said ask my GP. I asked my GP, and he was happy to prescribe it given my oncologist thought it was a good idea, saying it was cheap, and very unlikely to do any harm if used by a non-diabetic (chance of hypo is apparently low in a non-diabetic), so I was on it. (I think my GP is also the practice's diabetic specialist, so probably knows more about Metformin than many other GPs.) The only slight problem this causes is whenever a clinician sees you're on Metformin, they assume you are diabetic, which I had to correct many times. After an operation, I found bruises on most of my fingertips, which was because they were doing blood glucose finger prick tests all through the operation to make sure my blood glucose stayed normal, thinking I was diabetic. Also some people can't take Metformin because it causes them bowel problems.

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 08:18

Interesting, David is on metformin, statins an anti parasitic and an antibiotic all prescribed by his non NHS oncologist, he’s been on this regime now over 18 months. No significant side effects, apart from some fatigue which he puts down partly to bring 73,he also has the standard HT from his NHS oncologist alongside these meds. 
He takes  a list of supplements as well, his current PSA is <0.1 stage 4 Gleason 9 Tb3. He was diagnosed September 2015. We read Jane McLelland did her course and followed her diet and supplement advice. 

Leila 

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 10:09
By no means an expert, but from what I understand chemotherapy can be quite a draining experience. Your father may benefit from maintaining his energy levels with a good balanced diet. I wouldn't have thought it would be a good time for dietary restriction.

There is also the possibility he might find some foods less palatable due to the drugs, or causing intestinal upset. Probably best to have a flexible approach to ensure energy levels are maintained.

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 18:42

CHEMO and DIET 

When I started CHEMO I asked what should I avoid and what should I try and take more of.   Like your dad my cancer has spread to my bones so guess what..... Vitamin C and Vitamin D should be high in the list.   D helps you absorb C so take both.   Like your Dad I used to use the Keto diet to control weight and focused on Protein based meals but BALLANCE is the key.   Not too much protein and lots of veg - green stuff not the red and stuff you like eating. 

Little and often is the mantra - if he is like me then he will not want to eat lots - literally anything more than two Weatabix for breakfast and I am as sick as a dog..... where is the fry up and toast and black pudding.... not on my plate. 

HOWEVER, the best person to advice your Dad is his Dr and team..... we are all different and although we are in the same journey we all respond differently.   And don't forget to treat yourself every now and then... Ben and Jerries Cookie Dough is very good :-)

User
Posted 27 Jul 2023 at 21:02

Thanks Andy62 - that's good to know.

Best wishes,

JedSee.

User
Posted 30 Aug 2023 at 16:28

Hi Leila,

I’ve just been diagnosed these same as your husband David. T3b Gleason 9. Massive shock! 

im just waiting on my PSMA pet scan results which is taking forever just to confirm it hasn’t spread anywhere else. My oncologist has advised pending this treatment would be HT and RT or a prostectomy due to me only being 55.

I am very interested in the Jane M diet. My wife bought the book as soon as I was diagnosed but it’s quite intense.

Could you give me some pointers on diet and the meds your David is taking as it seems to be doing the trick!!

Many thanks

best wishes

Mark

 

 

User
Posted 31 Aug 2023 at 00:02

Hi Mark, 

I’m sorry to read you have joined the G9 club.

David takes a mixture of medications and supplements. Vitamin D, Vit B12, omega3 1000 mg, grass fed adrenal cortex 500 mg, garlic, Tumeric & ginger 1380 mg, evening primrose oil 1000mg, B17, Magnesium malate1600 mg, pomegranate extract 10,000 mg, K2 200ug, CoQ10, Ginger root, Betaglucans, Rosemary exreact, Turkey tail mushroom extract. Cider vinegar, hot lemon juice, and super green vegetable drink.


The Care Oncloogy Clinic prescribe, metformin, menbedazole, doxycycline, statins. 
David is also on  HT Prostap injection every three months. 

His original treatment was HDR Brachytherapy, 25 sessions of RT & three years of Prostap. He was initially diagnosed in 2015.

He was then diagnosed with stage 4 two years ago. This is when we started reading and looking beyond traditional treatments. 

This sounds and reads like an awful lot, and it is!

I’ve also read a book called ‘Your Forth Choice’ it’s about a fruit called PawPaw. 

Our diet is chicken X2 weekly Fish, lots of fresh home grown veggies, fruit, very limited or no sugar, red wine and the occasional pint of real ale. 
He does eat cheese and Greek yoghurt sometimes. 

I did a lot of reading, and decided we’d give this dammed cancer a run for its money.

The Care Oncology Clinic have been very good, they are not NHS 

David’s initial treatments were not NHS but he has both private & NHS consultants. 

We also have a GP friend who is very alternative, who has advised us as well on supplements.

Once we got our heads around it the daily regime has become quite easy, he takes them and we just get on with our lives.

David does get some pains, and these are mostly managed by exercise, we have rowing machine, it really helps. 
We manage an acre of garden,grow our own veg, he sings and plays every day. 
We tend to spend summers at home and holiday in winter…. Though after the debacle over the bank holiday I’ll be booking hols in the UK 😉

Please feel free to ask questions I’ll do my best to answer them. 

Leila. 

 

 

 

 

User
Posted 02 Sep 2023 at 00:40
Thank you so much for this Leila,

That is really helpful.

Jane M is doing a talk in Warwick next Thursday which we are going to to see what else we can find out..

I think they have spaces left if you fancy it although I do think she is doing talks all over the country too! Here is the link

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/strategies-to-starve-cancer-with-jane-mclelland-w-tickets-693960152497

Best wishes

Mark

User
Posted 02 Sep 2023 at 08:13
£65 a ticket, snake oil is always expensive
User
Posted 02 Sep 2023 at 10:59

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
£65 a ticket, snake oil is always expensive

I have to say, I would rather spend £65 on a slap up meal, but now a days, that barely buys you a pub lunch.

Dave

User
Posted 02 Sep 2023 at 12:54

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that, my view is Jane has survived stage 4 cancer for many years, and  the evidence is now being realised by the mainstream clinicians.

We have never denounced mainstream treatments, but they are in my view not the only pathway.

People may well mock the and call it snake oil, that’s ok in my book. I’ve read, studied researched and been well advised by a mainstream clinician who is well versed in cancer treatments. 
Yep, £65 is a bit steep, but in my world our health is priceless, especially when you are facing stage 4 prostate cancer and have a lot of living to do. 

Leila 

 

User
Posted 02 Sep 2023 at 13:59

Leila your posts are excellent, and your treatment decisions are always sensible. I think an important starting point for anyone looking at alternative treatments is that modern science started from herbalism, witchcraft and alchemy and astrology. Eating willow bark cures headaches. The Yee tree is the source of many chemotherapy drugs. Witches were burnt because they were better at curing people than the church.

Social hierarchies have put some human activities higher than others: religion and science are near the top. If science finds a herb that works then it is called medicine, if it isn't proved to work it is called alternative medicine. So I don't scoff at alternative medicines.

Nutrition is a very complicated subject which so far has eluded science, the advice on what is good for you and bad for you as related by scientists changes constantly. So anyone giving nutritional advice other than 'eat a balanced diet' I take with a pinch of salt.

I believe JM's books are priced comparable to any recipe book. I recently paid nearly £50 to listen to an orchestra play for a couple of hours, and as mentioned earlier £65 is half way between an average and a posh meal. So I don't think her fee is outrageous. Personally I doubt the information has any more value than that of any other nutritionist. I see she offers courses for several hundred pounds, and if her lectures are actually a sales pitch for courses, then we may be in to timeshare sales territory.

So I will stand by my original comment that I would prefer spend that much money on food than on someone talking about food.

There are people who will exploit the vulnerable, and 'big pharma' are not entirely innocent. Buyer beware.

 

Dave

User
Posted 03 Sep 2023 at 15:09

Thanks Dave, I really appreciated your response. Yep, there are definitely some snake oil sale people out there, sadly I include some of the pharmaceutical companies in this. I don’t have a scientific background, but I’m used to reading papers on various subjects for my sins. 
Chinese medicine, herbalists and many alternative plants herbs and potions have been available and used since time began. 
I am aware how much these gigs Jane Mclelland is putting on  cost, she probably isn’t making a great deal, but I agree £65 may be beyond the reach of some people and that is very sad. Diet isn’t the main tenure of her protocols, it is very varied, you actually might enjoy reading it 😉

My view is still look at all the options available, make yer choices and enjoy life.

once again thanks, I’m now planning on not getting burnt at the stake as a witch. 

Leila 

 
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