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Gleason Grades

User
Posted 16 Dec 2023 at 00:48

Hi

This PC stuff is doing my head in from a purely intellectual perspective. It all seems very binary in terms of Gleason score relating to low intermediate and high Grade cancer. However, when I read the journeys of lads on here, the Gleason score doesn't seem to determine the outcome and some lads with a Gleason 7 seem to have a more torrid time than lads with Gleason 9. Have misunderstood this? Is there a way of calculating ones prognosis relative to G score. The only thing that I seem to have gleaned so far from my reading is that G6 is not actually cancer but If you are above this it's pot luck. In summary, it appears to me like a handicap, the higher the score the higher the handicap but in reality a G7 could have a worse prognosis than a G9. Have I got this wrong?

Thanks

Rory

Edited by member 23 Dec 2023 at 02:55  | Reason: Typo

User
Posted 19 Dec 2023 at 19:11
My OH was 4+5 with spread to lymph nodes . He’s still here and working full time 8yrs later .

Some men respond to treatment a lot better than others .

User
Posted 16 Dec 2023 at 08:46

Morning Rory.

To complicate matters even further Gleason 7  can be (3+4) and (4+3) the latter being worse. As for Gleason 6 (3+3) not being cancer. That's what I was told when first diagnosed, 20 months later it was Gleason 9 (4+5)

It's all a bit complicated but basically I'd say the higher your score the more aggressive the cancer.  However you'll always find a variation in outcomes, some with a low Gleason score will end up with a better outcome than some with a higher score. It's not an exact science. Most Gleason scores are from biopsies which in themselves are not an exact science. Apparently the most accurate Gleason score is when your prostate is examined after its been surgically removed.

There are numerous sources that explain its intricacies far better than I can  including our site. Scroll down to Gleason score.

https://prostatecanceruk.org/prostate-information-and-support/prostate-tests/prostate-biopsy#:~:text=If%20you%20have%20prostate%20cancer%2C%20you%20will%20have%20Gleason%20grades,to%20spread%20outside%20the%20prostate.&text=There%20may%20be%20more%20than,adding%20together%20two%20Gleason%20grades.

Adrian

Edited by member 16 Dec 2023 at 09:15  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 16 Dec 2023 at 11:12

Rory, you can also add into the mix, how long you have had the cancer without knowing about it. On the plus side, techniques and detection once diagnosed are improving.

Thanks Chris 

User
Posted 19 Dec 2023 at 19:00

Someone with a gleason score of 6 might get disastrous unforseen side effects from treatment 

Someone with gleason score 8 might have a good respone to treatment with minimal side effects 

 

User
Posted 20 Dec 2023 at 11:09

I’ve seen the G6 debate previously and it’s not factually correct. At best it’s low risk cancer but pathologically it’s cancer as type 3 cells exhibits all the accepted traits of a cancer cell. The sting in the tail with a G6 diagnosis, as I received, there will usually at least a ~40% chance it will be upgraded on post-op histology. In my case the professor who was looking after me said due to my PCa being more extensive the probability was nearer 60%. Upgrades are due to the fact there will be higher grade cells present but in such small amounts they tend to be missed during biopsy.

Edited by member 20 Dec 2023 at 13:09  | Reason: Not specified

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User
Posted 16 Dec 2023 at 08:46

Morning Rory.

To complicate matters even further Gleason 7  can be (3+4) and (4+3) the latter being worse. As for Gleason 6 (3+3) not being cancer. That's what I was told when first diagnosed, 20 months later it was Gleason 9 (4+5)

It's all a bit complicated but basically I'd say the higher your score the more aggressive the cancer.  However you'll always find a variation in outcomes, some with a low Gleason score will end up with a better outcome than some with a higher score. It's not an exact science. Most Gleason scores are from biopsies which in themselves are not an exact science. Apparently the most accurate Gleason score is when your prostate is examined after its been surgically removed.

There are numerous sources that explain its intricacies far better than I can  including our site. Scroll down to Gleason score.

https://prostatecanceruk.org/prostate-information-and-support/prostate-tests/prostate-biopsy#:~:text=If%20you%20have%20prostate%20cancer%2C%20you%20will%20have%20Gleason%20grades,to%20spread%20outside%20the%20prostate.&text=There%20may%20be%20more%20than,adding%20together%20two%20Gleason%20grades.

Adrian

Edited by member 16 Dec 2023 at 09:15  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 16 Dec 2023 at 11:12

Rory, you can also add into the mix, how long you have had the cancer without knowing about it. On the plus side, techniques and detection once diagnosed are improving.

Thanks Chris 

User
Posted 19 Dec 2023 at 19:00

Someone with a gleason score of 6 might get disastrous unforseen side effects from treatment 

Someone with gleason score 8 might have a good respone to treatment with minimal side effects 

 

User
Posted 19 Dec 2023 at 19:11
My OH was 4+5 with spread to lymph nodes . He’s still here and working full time 8yrs later .

Some men respond to treatment a lot better than others .

User
Posted 20 Dec 2023 at 11:09

I’ve seen the G6 debate previously and it’s not factually correct. At best it’s low risk cancer but pathologically it’s cancer as type 3 cells exhibits all the accepted traits of a cancer cell. The sting in the tail with a G6 diagnosis, as I received, there will usually at least a ~40% chance it will be upgraded on post-op histology. In my case the professor who was looking after me said due to my PCa being more extensive the probability was nearer 60%. Upgrades are due to the fact there will be higher grade cells present but in such small amounts they tend to be missed during biopsy.

Edited by member 20 Dec 2023 at 13:09  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 23 Dec 2023 at 03:09

 Adrian

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply with some very helpful information. I think your post also confirms what I had previously suspected, namely that my G9 if caught earlier could have been a G7. 

Rory

.

Edited by member 23 Dec 2023 at 03:11  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 23 Dec 2023 at 03:12

Chris

Thanks. I also assume that it is.likely to be worse  the younger you get.it.

Rory

User
Posted 23 Dec 2023 at 18:24

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

 Adrian

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply with some very helpful information. I think your post also confirms what I had previously suspected, namely that my G9 if caught earlier could have been a G7

Rory

.

Generally speaking, no - the prostate cancer doesn't evolve over time from a G3+3 to a G3+4 and then a G4+3, G4+4, etc. Most men with a G4+3 cancer at biopsy will still have a G4+3 when they die. What might happen is that the G3+3 also had a small number of 4s which weren't picked up at diagnosis but which will replicate faster than the 3s over time. This is most significant when a man is diagnosed with a G3+4 or perhaps a G4+3 (or whatever) but the lab also spots a tiny number of pattern 5s - in this case, the biopsy result would be given as G3+4 (tertiary 5) and the approach of the medical staff will take that tertiary 5 into account because of the risk of it replicating quickly.  

If you had been diagnosed earlier, you might have been told (wrongly) that you were a G7 because that was all they could see in the samples, but you would have had some 5s in there already. 

There are other things that can cause the Gleason grade to appear to change over time. In rare cases, a man can develop a second prostate cancer unrelated to the first (for example, in the left side of the gland having already had RT to the right side) and, because this is unrelated to the first cancer, it can have a completely different Gleason pattern. Also (fortunately even more rarely), the first diagnosis is of adenocarcinoma but the man then develops (or already has but it was not picked up in the biopsy) a rare type such as small cell or mucinous PCa with a different Gleason grade. A few years ago, we had a member here diagnosed with adenocarcinoma in his prostate but small cell PCa in his bones  

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

 
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