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Unsure as to severity of diagnosis

User
Posted 19 May 2024 at 20:10

I had a RARP in December 2022 having had a PSA of 5 and following the histology was told that the cancer was PT3a and had not escaped the prostate capsule. The Gleason score was 4+5.

18 months later and I am on hormone treatment with radiotherapy to start mid-June as my PSA has risen to 0.2.

I have had sight of the letter the consultant sent to the cancer nurses which confirms the PT3a and also states that I had high grade disease with the histology showing extra prostatic disease.

Can anyone clarify what this all means? I was told the cancer had not escaped the capsule but the histology result suggests it has. 

Edited by member 20 May 2024 at 19:44  | Reason: Spelling

User
Posted 20 May 2024 at 00:16

https://prostatecanceruk.org/prostate-information-and-support/just-diagnosed/what-do-my-test-results-mean/

The above link will explain staging. Your Gleason score is higher than I was but the staging and histology were similar. I was diagnosed in December 2013 and don't intend going anywhere just yet.  I am still having currative intent treatment or perhaps delaying tactics to slow the progress. I have managed to dodge long term HT.

Thanks Chris 

User
Posted 20 May 2024 at 08:17

Hi Probbo,

I had my op 16 months ago, just before the op my PSA was 6.6. The removed prostate was Gleason 9 (4+5), T3a, with extraprostatic extension (EPE), which I believe means the tumour had breached the capsule.

The surgeon also removed some fatty tissue in the area, seminal vesicles and 9 lymph nodes. All these additional samples appeared cancer free. Did your surgeon do likewise? Have you got a copy of the histology report.

As far as I'm aware, high Gleason, and EPE do increase the risk of biochemical recurrence, which appears what has happened in your case, and for which you're receiving salvage treatment. 

As yet I've not had BCR but keep getting warned there is still about a 70% chance that I will.

Best of luck mate with your futher treatment.

 

 

User
Posted 21 May 2024 at 16:04

OK here we go. In my view, taken together, the papers below would seem to show:

a. the risk of recurrence never goes to zero, and men with high risk (e.g. high Gleason score) continue to be at higher risk.

b. However, many recurrences occur in the first couple of years, and the risk of a recurrence declines, the longer you go without recurrence. This reduction in the risk is especially big for those in the high risk groups.

c. If you not only avoid recurrence, but remain undetectable for 3+ years on an ultrasensitive test (e.g. PSA less than 0.03), then the risk of recurrence becomes very low, even for men in high risk groups.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7767936/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31001870/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586061/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022534716311958

Perhaps this is enough to be going on with - hope they are of interest !

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User
Posted 20 May 2024 at 00:16

https://prostatecanceruk.org/prostate-information-and-support/just-diagnosed/what-do-my-test-results-mean/

The above link will explain staging. Your Gleason score is higher than I was but the staging and histology were similar. I was diagnosed in December 2013 and don't intend going anywhere just yet.  I am still having currative intent treatment or perhaps delaying tactics to slow the progress. I have managed to dodge long term HT.

Thanks Chris 

User
Posted 20 May 2024 at 08:17

Hi Probbo,

I had my op 16 months ago, just before the op my PSA was 6.6. The removed prostate was Gleason 9 (4+5), T3a, with extraprostatic extension (EPE), which I believe means the tumour had breached the capsule.

The surgeon also removed some fatty tissue in the area, seminal vesicles and 9 lymph nodes. All these additional samples appeared cancer free. Did your surgeon do likewise? Have you got a copy of the histology report.

As far as I'm aware, high Gleason, and EPE do increase the risk of biochemical recurrence, which appears what has happened in your case, and for which you're receiving salvage treatment. 

As yet I've not had BCR but keep getting warned there is still about a 70% chance that I will.

Best of luck mate with your futher treatment.

 

 

User
Posted 21 May 2024 at 13:52

Probbo,

In previous posts you have stated that your biopsy was 8 (4+4), but I don't see an initial staging as a result of your MRI, but given you were steered down the route of RP as opposed to RT, I'm guessing that it may have been T2b or T2c, this would have put you in CPG 4 and that would be consistent with you been told the cancer had not escaped the prostate capsule, however the T3a staging can be subjective for instance the person who originally looked at my MRI scan deemed it T2c however 2 MDT teams have since reviewed it and each had assessed it as T3a..

Unfortunately your post RP histology was upgraded to 9 (4+5) and staging confirmed as T3a with the capsule been breached, taking the forum as being fairly representative it would seem histology upgrades are not uncommon. The Gleason score alone would have placed you in CPG 5, the highest risk group.

I'm not sure whether you've had a PSMA scan before the HT which detected cancer, or if they are going to irradiate the pelvic bed, which your pattern of PSA increase and their experience is telling them that is where there stray cancer cells will be, but either way hopefully they will kill the cells and you will be in long term remission.

Adrian, I'm assuming they assessed the risk of recurrence as much less than 70% pre op?

Also as time goes by surely the chance of recurrence diminishes, either way, long may you continue to defy the odds

User
Posted 21 May 2024 at 15:27

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Adrian, I'm assuming they assessed the risk of recurrence as much less than 70% pre op?

Also as time goes by surely the chance of recurrence diminishes, either way, long may you continue to defy the odds

Hi Richard,

Pre op my Gleason was 8 (4+4) T2c but due to the volume of positive cores 20 out of 24 cores, the surgeon warned me of a 60% chance of recurrence. The removed prostate upgraded me to Gleason 9 (4+5) and T3a. I was then told this increased my chance of recurrence to 70%

Like you, I logically thought the longer your PSA remained undetectable post op, the less chance of recurrence, but apparently this isn't the case.

I noticed you mentioned comparing the old TNM T2b and T2c to the new CPG staging. You might find a thread I did on this interesting.

https://community.prostatecanceruk.org/posts/t29997-T2c-disease-and-active-surveillance

It seems that NICE under TNM staging rated any T2c disease as high risk not suitable for AS, but when moving to CPG, classed it as CPG 2, low risk, suitable for AS.  This has always mystified me.

Edited by member 21 May 2024 at 15:36  | Reason: Additional text.

User
Posted 21 May 2024 at 15:39

Adrian

I was intrigued by your comment that the chance of recurrence does  not go down the longer your PSA remains undetectable.

Could I ask what this is based on please as I have seen numerous research papers which seem to show the contrary - happy to post some links if that would be helpful.

Kevin

User
Posted 21 May 2024 at 15:45

Hi Kevin,

It was from a couple of our knowlegeable folk on here.

I know you're very good at research, if you could pass a link showing the contrary, I would be absolutely delighted. I'd certainly sleep better at night. 🙂

User
Posted 21 May 2024 at 16:04

OK here we go. In my view, taken together, the papers below would seem to show:

a. the risk of recurrence never goes to zero, and men with high risk (e.g. high Gleason score) continue to be at higher risk.

b. However, many recurrences occur in the first couple of years, and the risk of a recurrence declines, the longer you go without recurrence. This reduction in the risk is especially big for those in the high risk groups.

c. If you not only avoid recurrence, but remain undetectable for 3+ years on an ultrasensitive test (e.g. PSA less than 0.03), then the risk of recurrence becomes very low, even for men in high risk groups.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7767936/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31001870/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586061/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022534716311958

Perhaps this is enough to be going on with - hope they are of interest !

User
Posted 21 May 2024 at 16:33

Cheers Kevin,

I thought if you had a high gleason, it seemed logical that it would reappear more quickly than a less aggressive cancer? 

I'll read the links you've kindly posted and see if I can gain a degree of hope from them.

Thank you so much for your response.

 

User
Posted 22 May 2024 at 02:43

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
I have had sight of the letter the consultant sent to the cancer nurses which confirms the PT3a and also states that I had high grade disease with the histology showing extra prostatic disease.

Have you had a recent biopsy or some scans and if so what were the results?

In your situation, without a prostate, the psa clearly suggests recurrence and the most likely source is the prostate bed but that's guesswork and it could be glands or maybe seminal vesicles.

Do you mind sharing your age here?

Jules

User
Posted 22 May 2024 at 07:49
Microcolei

The consultant feels a scan would not show anything as the cells will be too small to be picked up. As my PSA has hit 0.2 I was referred back into the system.

I was 63 when I had my RARP and am now rapidly approaching 65.

User
Posted 22 May 2024 at 09:34

Probbo, Richard has covered it well. You could ask your oncologist exactly what they intend treating with RT; the prostate bed, the seminal vesicles and maybe some lymph glands? Basically, it would be good to know exactly what judgement on spread the oncologist is working on.

With a G9 it's not surprising that you had some extra-capsular extension but at the same time your psa was low at 5 and you're relatively young, so RP was an understandable choice . The "high grade" pretty much goes with the G9 rating, so it's not any more menacing than the G9 itself.

Jules

 

 

 

User
Posted 22 May 2024 at 09:50

Jules

The Oncologist is hitting the prostate bed with 20 sessions if radiotherapy, along g with six months of Bicalutamide, 150mg daily.

 

 

 
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