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Treatment, or not

User
Posted 09 Dec 2024 at 18:44

Should my dad who is 86, frail, blind, living alone, under 10 stone start ADT or chemical castration ?

His PSA showed 21.4, he says he isn't in pain but I'm not sure, he had urine retention and was catheterised and due a TWOC tomorrow.

He had two CT scans, a bone scan but no biopsy due to his condition and age. Mets, I'm not sure as the consultant was vague.

Does anyone have any advice, yes or no to ADT ?

No other treatment has been offered.

I'm leaning towards doing nothing but of course, it is not about me but I do think it could make him worse than he is now !

His consultant is keen to start asap.

Thanks in advance people !

 

User
Posted 09 Dec 2024 at 22:04

Is this his first PSA test. It would be good to know how fast his PSA is increasing. It is quite possible he has had prostate cancer for 20 years if that is the case it is probably progressing so slowly he will die of something else sooner.

I would seriously consider monitoring it for a few months to delay any treatment decision. If it has already been monitored and treatment is being recommended then at 86 ADT is probably the best type to have. One advantage of ADT is that he can stop the treatment very easily if the cure is worse than the disease.

Once you get to old age, it can be a case of choosing what you want to die of rather than thinking you will live forever.

 

Dave

User
Posted 10 Dec 2024 at 00:30

If he does decide to start ADT, I would consider having just Bicalutamide plus 20mg Tamoxifen/week. As a useful side effect, Bicalutamide by itself as ADT is bone strengthening. With a bit of luck, this might work for a couple of years.

User
Posted 10 Dec 2024 at 21:05
NS409, what worries me is the thought his urine retention - which is the most urgent thing to treat - is due to a cancer-enlarged prostate. It may be that tamsulosin will help with that at least temporarily allowing PSA to be monitored as suggested by Dave.

But it is possible that ADT of whichever form, in order to shrink the current tumour as well as stop cancer progression, is the best way of resolving the urine retention. As Andy says there are undesirable side effects in older patients, he mentions the effect on bone (and suggests a strategy) but in a patient already frail I would also worry about the way it tends to weaken muscles.

I think that we can all agree that for an 86-year old patient with other conditions, you need to think about what is kindest for your dad. It may be that it is kinder to start ADT sooner rather than later to sort out the urine retention. Treatments aimed at a "cure", which can be pretty stressful for younger patients in much better health, would be cruel unless they are needed to reduce a source of pain. ADT does have side effects, I experienced low stamina as well as weight gain and loss of libido, but it would also give reassurance that the cancer isn't likely to progress further and cause pain.

User
Posted 11 Dec 2024 at 10:40

Hormone therapy (Bicalutamide or injections) will also shrink prostate significantly over the first 3 months, which might help solve the retention problem. I presume he's already on an alpha blocker such as Tamsulosin (although there are better ones for elderly people).

User
Posted 11 Dec 2024 at 11:29

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
At the hospital ward later in the week, dad said his kidney function was 12% of expected, surely not (I googled)

Some of that might be temporary after the retention, but it certainly can cause permanent damage. His kidney function might not have been good even before the retention (a previous renal function blood test would show that). This low kidney function also impacts what other medications he can have.

User
Posted 11 Dec 2024 at 21:31
NS409, none of us here are (as far as I know) doctors but some have a pretty good scientific background. We can only help you make sense of the options.

Basically my reading is that the urine retention is your father's issue which causes the biggest problem, and if the consultant concludes ADT is the most promising way to deal with it you should probably go with that. The downsides are probably going to be minor in relation to the benefits: it will also mean you (and he) don't need to worry about the cancer progressing, and there is a possibility it is a factor in the low kidney function and there might be some recovery in that. As I said above, do whatever is kindest.

User
Posted 12 Dec 2024 at 08:20

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Humour prevails in my head, I had an image of leaving the consultant meeting in January saying, "we better be quick if we want to get to Matalan for that trainer bra"

I was only on it a couple of months and could have filled an A cup.

Joking apart mate. My dad was in his late 70s when he started hormone therapy. I think he was deemed too old and frail for biopsies and radical treatment. He carried on, much as normal, for 8 years. Good luck to you both.

User
Posted 12 Dec 2024 at 09:16

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Humour prevails in my head, I had an image of leaving the consultant meeting in January saying, "we better be quick if we want to get to Matalan for that trainer bra"

That was the reason for the 20mg Tamoxifen/week (particularly if on Bicalutamide for more than 2 months).

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User
Posted 09 Dec 2024 at 22:04

Is this his first PSA test. It would be good to know how fast his PSA is increasing. It is quite possible he has had prostate cancer for 20 years if that is the case it is probably progressing so slowly he will die of something else sooner.

I would seriously consider monitoring it for a few months to delay any treatment decision. If it has already been monitored and treatment is being recommended then at 86 ADT is probably the best type to have. One advantage of ADT is that he can stop the treatment very easily if the cure is worse than the disease.

Once you get to old age, it can be a case of choosing what you want to die of rather than thinking you will live forever.

 

Dave

User
Posted 10 Dec 2024 at 00:30

If he does decide to start ADT, I would consider having just Bicalutamide plus 20mg Tamoxifen/week. As a useful side effect, Bicalutamide by itself as ADT is bone strengthening. With a bit of luck, this might work for a couple of years.

User
Posted 10 Dec 2024 at 08:34

Thanks Dave, that is exactly what I was thinking ( last paragraph)

I appreciate the reply greatly.

User
Posted 10 Dec 2024 at 08:59

Cheers Andy, I will screenshot your recommendations and see what the consultant comes up with.

Much appreciated and good luck !

User
Posted 10 Dec 2024 at 21:05
NS409, what worries me is the thought his urine retention - which is the most urgent thing to treat - is due to a cancer-enlarged prostate. It may be that tamsulosin will help with that at least temporarily allowing PSA to be monitored as suggested by Dave.

But it is possible that ADT of whichever form, in order to shrink the current tumour as well as stop cancer progression, is the best way of resolving the urine retention. As Andy says there are undesirable side effects in older patients, he mentions the effect on bone (and suggests a strategy) but in a patient already frail I would also worry about the way it tends to weaken muscles.

I think that we can all agree that for an 86-year old patient with other conditions, you need to think about what is kindest for your dad. It may be that it is kinder to start ADT sooner rather than later to sort out the urine retention. Treatments aimed at a "cure", which can be pretty stressful for younger patients in much better health, would be cruel unless they are needed to reduce a source of pain. ADT does have side effects, I experienced low stamina as well as weight gain and loss of libido, but it would also give reassurance that the cancer isn't likely to progress further and cause pain.

User
Posted 11 Dec 2024 at 08:04

J-B, thank you for the input.

Yes, the retention was bad, the paramedics gave him morphine at home before A&E.

At the hospital ward later in the week, dad said his kidney function was 12% of expected, surely not (I googled)

He was supposed to have a TWOC yesterday but nobody showed up.

I don't expect a successful TWOC, however, would intermittent treatment (ADT) and another TWOC attempt later down the line be feasible ?

 

Guys, I salute you for forming what must be so comforting a forum such as this !

 

User
Posted 11 Dec 2024 at 10:40

Hormone therapy (Bicalutamide or injections) will also shrink prostate significantly over the first 3 months, which might help solve the retention problem. I presume he's already on an alpha blocker such as Tamsulosin (although there are better ones for elderly people).

User
Posted 11 Dec 2024 at 11:29

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
At the hospital ward later in the week, dad said his kidney function was 12% of expected, surely not (I googled)

Some of that might be temporary after the retention, but it certainly can cause permanent damage. His kidney function might not have been good even before the retention (a previous renal function blood test would show that). This low kidney function also impacts what other medications he can have.

User
Posted 11 Dec 2024 at 21:31
NS409, none of us here are (as far as I know) doctors but some have a pretty good scientific background. We can only help you make sense of the options.

Basically my reading is that the urine retention is your father's issue which causes the biggest problem, and if the consultant concludes ADT is the most promising way to deal with it you should probably go with that. The downsides are probably going to be minor in relation to the benefits: it will also mean you (and he) don't need to worry about the cancer progressing, and there is a possibility it is a factor in the low kidney function and there might be some recovery in that. As I said above, do whatever is kindest.

User
Posted 12 Dec 2024 at 08:06

Thanks J-B, the TWOC failed yesterday, his tummy was like a balloon filled with water.but luckily the girls came to scan him, noticed he had 70ml in his bladder that he could not pass, and was catheterised again.

So ADT in January it is, he was crestfallen but I said he may get another go !

 

Humour prevails in my head, I had an image of leaving the consultant meeting in January saying, "we better be quick if we want to get to Matalan for that trainer bra"

User
Posted 12 Dec 2024 at 08:20

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Humour prevails in my head, I had an image of leaving the consultant meeting in January saying, "we better be quick if we want to get to Matalan for that trainer bra"

I was only on it a couple of months and could have filled an A cup.

Joking apart mate. My dad was in his late 70s when he started hormone therapy. I think he was deemed too old and frail for biopsies and radical treatment. He carried on, much as normal, for 8 years. Good luck to you both.

User
Posted 12 Dec 2024 at 09:16

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

Humour prevails in my head, I had an image of leaving the consultant meeting in January saying, "we better be quick if we want to get to Matalan for that trainer bra"

That was the reason for the 20mg Tamoxifen/week (particularly if on Bicalutamide for more than 2 months).

 
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