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Dissatisfaction with supposedly top international cancer centre

User
Posted 23 May 2025 at 10:27

I’m feeling both personally and professionally as a psychologist having worked in the field and now a patient myself - upset and angry after receiving a triage letter putting me in a low priority waiting list for initial appointment after GP e-referral as transferred from another hospital to my local home area and care of my GP. Effectively they write advising my GP to do PSA every 6 months from now on and no need for further action unless my PSA rises to 2 (from nadir 0.01) based, it seems, on the outdated Phoenix criteria (2006) long before current scanning advances and treatment options - never actually intended to be used as a clinical screening  (Gatekeepering) tool let alone for high risk salvage opportunities 

 

This totally failed to reflect my situation: initial G7 prostate cancer treated with HIFU, which failed in < 6 months, then upgrade to localised G9 leading to salvage radiotherapy and 17 months adjuvant ADT. 

 

My PSA rose from <0.01 to 0.1 as soon testosterone recovered to 16, after 8 months of ADT and this is likely early BCR and I believe this calls for the new hospital I was referred to, to see me as a priority and closely monitor for detecting early doubling time or rise to 0.2 - 0.3 for possible early imaging— but certainly NOT have me stalled for maybe months not until they suggest my PSA is 2 when any BCR has taken hold and options become very limited. 

 

Given my significant comorbidities (including polio and PPS with respiratory involvement), delaying oncology’s monitoring and potential early action risks forcing more aggressive and less tolerable treatment on me later. 

 

I’m aiming for early, lower-impact intervention—possibly oral ADT and a low-dose estrogen patch—used intermittently.

 

Has anyone else struggled with one-size-fits-all triage? Any tips on challenging this as in UK’s broken NHS system - so I gave some concerns that rather than triggering more patient centred individual tailored care and treatment by age, polio, wheelchair use and BiPap user actually works against me ! 

 

Despite me have as a health professional and an expert patient for much of my life and living and working for over 35 years (and still working as a psychologist) with little or no medical crises  due to MY close monitoring and thus early - patient centred care and interventions.

 

So tell me, now I have this much more common disease I just get lumped into a clinical box - regardless of it’s applicability to me or its outdated clinical accuracy?!

User
Posted 23 May 2025 at 15:54

Hello Nomis,

I think you are worrying about BCR unnecessarily.

You still have your prostate as far as I can tell from your bio. This means that you expect your PSA to rise when your testosterone returns, and fortunately they are measuring your testosterone (which is rare), so you can see that's exactly why your PSA has risen.

Your last two PSA and Testosterone tests are the same which is good, but they're too close together to say that's a trend (need to be at least 3 months apart to claim a trend), so it's possible both will still rise further. PSA response typically lags about 3 months behind Testosterone. When your Testosterone level has been stable for ~6 months, you should hopefully see your PSA is stable for ~3 months, which would be a good sign.

Your levels at the moment (16 and 0.1) are very good, and don't show any sign of BCR.

BCR in your case (still having a prostate) would be defined as PSA reaching 2.01 (your nadir + 2.0). Some hospitals might act sooner if they saw a stable Testosterone level for some time, but PSA continuing to rise.

You could push for 3-monthly PSA and Testosterone tests to keep a close eye on it, and identify what the trends are.

User
Posted 23 May 2025 at 15:04

Nomis, I get where you are coming from, after surgery and SRT I was told to wait until the PSA got to 2,4 or even 10 before going onto HT. The advances of PSMA scans and targeted SABR treatment did lead to a change in treatment and they have treated individual lymph nodes. My last scan did show numerous hot spots and too much disease to treat or too close to organs. So I have now started HT.

I suppose the question is, do they have the technology to successfully treat us.

Thanks Chris 

 

 

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User
Posted 23 May 2025 at 15:04

Nomis, I get where you are coming from, after surgery and SRT I was told to wait until the PSA got to 2,4 or even 10 before going onto HT. The advances of PSMA scans and targeted SABR treatment did lead to a change in treatment and they have treated individual lymph nodes. My last scan did show numerous hot spots and too much disease to treat or too close to organs. So I have now started HT.

I suppose the question is, do they have the technology to successfully treat us.

Thanks Chris 

 

 

User
Posted 23 May 2025 at 15:54

Hello Nomis,

I think you are worrying about BCR unnecessarily.

You still have your prostate as far as I can tell from your bio. This means that you expect your PSA to rise when your testosterone returns, and fortunately they are measuring your testosterone (which is rare), so you can see that's exactly why your PSA has risen.

Your last two PSA and Testosterone tests are the same which is good, but they're too close together to say that's a trend (need to be at least 3 months apart to claim a trend), so it's possible both will still rise further. PSA response typically lags about 3 months behind Testosterone. When your Testosterone level has been stable for ~6 months, you should hopefully see your PSA is stable for ~3 months, which would be a good sign.

Your levels at the moment (16 and 0.1) are very good, and don't show any sign of BCR.

BCR in your case (still having a prostate) would be defined as PSA reaching 2.01 (your nadir + 2.0). Some hospitals might act sooner if they saw a stable Testosterone level for some time, but PSA continuing to rise.

You could push for 3-monthly PSA and Testosterone tests to keep a close eye on it, and identify what the trends are.

User
Posted 23 May 2025 at 18:18

Having read your ‘journey’ it’s been a rollercoaster and I see much like me you’ve also used your private health which I’ve kept on despite the cost after my initial treatment put up premiums and inflation! 
I was hoping to move away and hope nhs would do the job - I now see it’s a LOT less obvious or clear and I am particularly concerned about tunes to scans and treatment decisions. So I’ve stuck in there with the private for the tune being whilst see how crap the NHS is at be proactive not reactive and these ridiculous high thresholds to intubate tests and possible treatments 

goid luck with the coming year and navigating the system ! 

User
Posted 23 May 2025 at 19:16

I am aware that ‘the mantra’ about residual tissue or indolent cells abounds. Sadly this is just not as simple as that as firstly high risk - especially after failed HIFU for supposedly G7 (3+4) with only 5-10% after two biopsies and 3 MRIs over 18 months and then in only 6 months upgraded on Another biopsy to G9 (4+20%5) and recurrence in fields and G7 on a previously free side. 

in addition I am probably unusual compared to many as firstly u started checking my PSA aged 60 when it was <1 and had I not pushed in 2019 when by PSA went to 4.1 but on retest the next week was 3.5 I would nit have been referred especially as pandemic kicked in 3 months later. 

I had NO symptoms, no urinary issues, never got up to pee - nor do I now and had minimal or no BPH and my prostate was unusually small / normal for my age 28cc - so after HIFU and  RT there would be very little if any prostate cells left.

 I had to fight at Dx that my PSA was NOT  just OK for my age and probably BPH and then after HIFU, my PSA was still 5 they said it was probably infection or inflammation - complete rubbish - I know my body ! And such it was as I told them. 

So I could ‘hope’ and cross my fingers for this being a benign PCa cells or slow less aggressive disease but as I’ve learnt protocols based on 20-25 year old research arr about cost management but shoukd NOT be a clinical guide or triage system but used based on and with individual patients’ and their unique history and pathology.

So IF it’s about money or overloaded system - be honest don’t pretend that this isn’t probably an sign of early BCR given its history and low levels of PSA even at Dx and the heterogeneous nature of PCa especially when you look at my individual pathology and biopsies. 

So as usual with managing ALL my health over the years being on top of this to intervene with tests and then discuss the possibility of an oral LHRH agonist and, or an E2 patch as initially intermittent therapy. Obviously and critically when scans and PSMA are useful / but definitely far too late at 2ng/m. Also this is probably the best up to date (even if non NHS NICE) standard in other best centres around the world.

This is especially relevant for me given my other polio and breathing and wheelchair issues,  as unlike appearance  I am pretty healthy and resilient and most of my family live well into their  90s and I’m still actively working as a psychologist and I hope contributing to society. To be subject to aggressive late salvage or long term LHRH agonist and other even more aggressive treatment is unacceptable and inappropriate. 

luckily my GP is excellent so we will be closely monitoring PSA and T every 2-3 months not the ridiculous 6 months suggested by the hospital letter to my GP which showed me. 


Sorry, bit of a rant but I think this is a philosophical and ethical issue generally in the NHS system such as NICE, a flawed  pernicious set up of the Blair years, which has addrd to turning clinical care into a kind of protocol not  patient/clinician humane partnership by removing clinician’s (and other health care professionals) autonomy to work with patients as individuals in an holistic atmosphere of joint co-operative decision making abd care - and that’s not just care sadly - statistics, protocols, criteria, bench marks and guidelines have been turned into rules and restrictions and research has been hijacked by such bodies as NICE and accountants to justify these decisions / basically if if money say so - if it’s too many patients say your priorities are about age or whatever don’t hide behind these artificial barriers. 

 

User
Posted 25 May 2025 at 00:41

I have had the benefit of private health for many years but I am now NHS only.

I found the upside to private healthcare is also it's downside - you tend to see one specialist and depending how their primadonna syndrome is behaving they may or may not seek further options from the MDT or other team members or they may not even have any colleagues who will speak to them!. I mitigated that risk by always getting a second opinion and I was amazed how easily oncologists options could be changed if you said "so and so says I should do X"

So would I go private again? Yes if I thought it was worth it, to make sure I don't feel the need to "get value" from health insurance and risk over treatment I would self fund.

Currently my NHS onco says the same as 2 private ones did: wait until 0.2 and get further imaging.

 
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