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Still unsure which treatment I should choose

User
Posted 09 Mar 2015 at 18:55
Hi all

I have just been diagnosed with PC and given a choice of treatment to consider (initially I was told that I would be given hormone therapy for about 3 months and then start on RT). However at my first consultation post diagnosis after all my tests had been evaluated by the team, I have been informed that I am also suitable for surgery.

I have had a consultation with the Oncology doctor and the urology surgeon who both stated that there was no right or wrong decision as both are effective. So it is entirely up to me to make a decision. I have read all the literature given to me and raked my brains to come up with a decision (but confusion reigns).

The surgery I have been offered is Robotic Da Vinci surgery.

My numbers are:

last PSA 8.4

MRI showed possible left peripheral zone cancer PIRAD score 4.

TRUS guided biopsies showing adenocarcinoma of the prostate.

Gleason 4+3 in 6 out of 10 cores with core involvement of 5 - 100% max core length 14mm.

Staged at T3a - N0

Bone scan clear.

I would appreciate any advice in order to assist my decision.

Thank you

John

John 26
User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 09:19

Morning John,

You are facing the choice that we all faced when diagnosed. If you read through some of the personal stories here with all the different choices there is still no clear "winner" in the treatment options race, sadly.

So it comes down to personal choice assuming that all options are suitable for you, your age and level of fitness.

Questions that you may wish to consider asking at any consultations:

1. What treatments are on offer?

2. Are there any other treatment options offered in nearby NHS trusts that I could have if I ask for a referral?

3. If I opt for one type of treatment now, might that preclude any others from the future if I needed further treatment?

4. What are the potential side effects of each treatment?

5. What are the % rates at which those effects have been experienced by patients of similar age, level of fitness and stage of diagnosis?

I would take a notebook and a pen to record any answers to any questions, and someone to accompany me, as 4 ears are better than 2 at remembering to ask the questions and remembering to record the answers.

Every treatment option has the chance of unintended side effects, some more likely to happen than others.

When I spoke with my surgeon, Da Vinci, I told him that my most important outcome was to live, then be continent, and then if possible to have some EF preserved, in that order.  I made sure he understood that he could do whatever he needed to do in order to preserve my life expectancy.  Take out whatever he wanted as I did not want him apologising to me later for a recurrence because he had been timid in removing tissue in the belief that he was doing me a favour, which might only benefit me in the short term as there might be no long term.       

Whatever you decide to do, be 100% sure that it is right for you and your circumstances.

atb

dave

 

 

Edited by member 10 Mar 2015 at 09:27  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 06:44

John

This has to be a personal decision as you don't want to look back and wonder if it was the right decision. Not sure what literature you have read but the toolkit on PCUK publications is very good.

Did the oncologist and urologist discuss all the possible side effects with you? This is something you may want to consider when making a decision.

You say you are staged at T3a...This means that there may be some local spread as it means the cancer has broken through the capsule. What are the urologists thoughts on that ie is he/she confident of getting all the cancer. If so will they be able to preserve nerve bundles in doing so (important for erectile function). What is their experience in this particular operation. What are their sucess rates both in terms of cure and minimising side effects. Ask them they have to tell you and you need an experienced surgeon.

Have they said you will need follow up radio therapy. If so should you consider going down the HT/RT route as primary treatment rather than risking two lots of side effects. Or would you rather debunk the prostate and follow up with RT if necessary.

Lots to think about but as I say it has to be your decision and you need to be confident that you have made the right decision.

Good luck. Please read my profile re my decision and follow up

Bri

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 08:40

Good morning John and welcome.

Can't add much to what Brian says (The Toolkit is excellent) but just wanted to say hello.

There are many men on here who have asked the same question, and made their decisions.
Whatever decision you make has to be right for you, both now and in the future -ie no looking back and saying "if only".

Please ask ANY questions you want answers to or advice on, no matter what.
Somebody will have experienced it at some stage.

This disease may be the same for all but it varies in its response to treatments, even if it's the same treatment.

Make sure you ask about nerve sparing.

Good luck and keep in touch with everyone

Best Wishes
Sandra

We can't control the winds - but we can adjust our sails
User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 10:01

Dave has summed it up. Like Dave, I chose surgery as it was to me the most efficient way of getting rid of the cancer. As your cancer may have reached the extremes of your prostate, you may lose all your nerves with surgery. Ask how important EF is for you before plumping for surgery, how likely is nerve sparing. Brian also posted a link yesterday that was proposing correlation between nerve sparing and continence as well.

Good luck in your decision. Make sure you have all the questions you need for your onco.

Paul

Stay Calm And Carry On.
User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 12:44

I chose surgery too,

one thing to consider is your age and fitness , if you decided not to have surgery and in 5 years time or so the cancer comes back what will your options be, I had to pass a fitness test for surgery,  Im in my mid 60's and consider myself resonably fit and active

The impression I now have is the older you get, the less keen they are to do surgery along with any treatment ,apart from prescribing medication

it was pointed out to me by a consultant that the the average age of life expectancy in the UK is 72,  I was taken aback somewhat probably because I didnt consider myself old or ill, I could see the cogs turning in his head though , he didnt need to paint me a picture , no mistake this was and probably is happening.

 

good luck with your decision

 

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 17:41

My husband chose surgery because he thought it was only T1 or T2. In the event he was T3 and the cancer made itself known again a couple of years later, at which point he had RT/HT. He bitterly regrets his decision to have surgery on the basis that he has had to manage unnecessary side effects.

Edited by member 10 Mar 2015 at 22:40  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 18:07

John,

None of this will give you a clear steer as to which treatment option you should opt for, probably?

Interesting noting the initial staging at diagnosis and subsequent staging after pathology, mostly here found to be more advanced at pathology I suspect? Mine went from T2 to T3a. I might well end up having further treatment along the lines of Lyn's partner. All that being possible, I would not change my mind about my initial treatment choice.

Have you asked in what order any treatment choices could be made so that none are ruled out later? I was told, and things may have changed over the last 19 months, that unless I took surgery as the 1st treatment I could n to have surgery of any sort later. Please be aware that things may be different these days?

You will probably feel a lot better once you have made your first choice and got that treatment behind you, I know I did. And although I did not make anywhere near as good as a recovery as the Robotic adverts suggested I might, unlike Lyn's other half, even if I could turn back the clock, I would not change my initial choice.

good luck whatever you decide.

dave

User
Posted 11 Mar 2015 at 00:25

John

First of all let me make clear that I am incurable and so am not lucky enough to have your choice http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif

My own oncologist is vehemently anti-surgery but then again he's an oncologist http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif. The stats show that it's 50:50 regarding survival rates post surgery versus RT. Maybe that's a little grey area as surgeons tend to cherry pick their cases (you usually  see a surgeon / urologist first before any other member of an MDT http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif) and they don't go for the high Gleasons or "iffy" cases. He always says to me, " Give me a man with curable prostate cancer and I will cure him with RT to at least the same degree as a surgeon but with fewer side effects". I should point out that he has access to the latest IMRT / IGRT technology and the stats are based on much older external beam RT equipment, so the newer stuff should be much better. I don't have a choice but you do - whatever it is will be the right one but think hard and choose wisely http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif

Edited by member 11 Mar 2015 at 00:26  | Reason: Not specified

Nil desperandum

Allister

User
Posted 15 Mar 2015 at 12:01

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Hi all
Thank you all so much for your support and advice. After much deliberation, sleepless nights, discussions with my wife and rereading of the literature, I have decided to opt for HT followed by RT. At one stage I very nearly plumbed for the Da Vinci surgery as I thought I just want to get rid of it. However as I am Staged at T3a it has been stated that I may need RT afterwards anyway.
I started on my 21day course of HT meds this week and have my first of 3 monthly Depot injections on the 24th of this month.
So I presume I will be starting RT around June or July.
Once again thanks to all and I will keep updating as I go along
All the best to everyone
John.

Wishing you well on your chosen treatment path...

Given your current clinical staging and your reasoning, I'm sure you have made the right decision for you as an individual.

Luther

User
Posted 15 Mar 2015 at 12:01
John

well done decision made now you have stick with it and do not look back.

I hope the HT gets everything under control for you ahead of your RT.

best wishes

Mo

User
Posted 15 Mar 2015 at 12:24

Good luck with your choice of treatment, on balance probably the best option for you at tis stage. Don't look back.

Now enjoy the weekend.

dave

User
Posted 22 Apr 2015 at 14:33

Hello John,

 

I had the 3 gold seeds fitted, they are called "fiducial markers". They allow the exact position of your prostate to be located using X-Rays, as the Prostate can move 2-3 cm day to day. 

I had IMRT for 37 fractions back at the end of 2011. My Onco went for the fiducial markers as I was T3B with spread into both seminal vesicles, and he wanted to get the best separation between the area of treatment and my bowel, to limit any collateral damage.

The good news is that I have now been discharged from Oncology after nearly 3 years on ADT, and my PSA is down to 0.1. Also I have very little long-term damage to my bowel, although I am on Imodium daily to keep it all "under control"!  However, When they fitted the gold seeds, they said it would feel similar to having a biopsy, but I found it a lot more painful! I would suggest you ask whether they give an anaesthetic when to carry out the procedure.

My experience of Radiation Therapy was good. It was easier than I anticipated, and the staff in the department were all very friendly, and put you at ease. There are a few side effects, but they are easily liable with, and the nurses there are always willing to advise if you ask.

 

Hope all goes well for you.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

Show Most Thanked Posts
User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 06:44

John

This has to be a personal decision as you don't want to look back and wonder if it was the right decision. Not sure what literature you have read but the toolkit on PCUK publications is very good.

Did the oncologist and urologist discuss all the possible side effects with you? This is something you may want to consider when making a decision.

You say you are staged at T3a...This means that there may be some local spread as it means the cancer has broken through the capsule. What are the urologists thoughts on that ie is he/she confident of getting all the cancer. If so will they be able to preserve nerve bundles in doing so (important for erectile function). What is their experience in this particular operation. What are their sucess rates both in terms of cure and minimising side effects. Ask them they have to tell you and you need an experienced surgeon.

Have they said you will need follow up radio therapy. If so should you consider going down the HT/RT route as primary treatment rather than risking two lots of side effects. Or would you rather debunk the prostate and follow up with RT if necessary.

Lots to think about but as I say it has to be your decision and you need to be confident that you have made the right decision.

Good luck. Please read my profile re my decision and follow up

Bri

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 08:40

Good morning John and welcome.

Can't add much to what Brian says (The Toolkit is excellent) but just wanted to say hello.

There are many men on here who have asked the same question, and made their decisions.
Whatever decision you make has to be right for you, both now and in the future -ie no looking back and saying "if only".

Please ask ANY questions you want answers to or advice on, no matter what.
Somebody will have experienced it at some stage.

This disease may be the same for all but it varies in its response to treatments, even if it's the same treatment.

Make sure you ask about nerve sparing.

Good luck and keep in touch with everyone

Best Wishes
Sandra

We can't control the winds - but we can adjust our sails
User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 09:19

Morning John,

You are facing the choice that we all faced when diagnosed. If you read through some of the personal stories here with all the different choices there is still no clear "winner" in the treatment options race, sadly.

So it comes down to personal choice assuming that all options are suitable for you, your age and level of fitness.

Questions that you may wish to consider asking at any consultations:

1. What treatments are on offer?

2. Are there any other treatment options offered in nearby NHS trusts that I could have if I ask for a referral?

3. If I opt for one type of treatment now, might that preclude any others from the future if I needed further treatment?

4. What are the potential side effects of each treatment?

5. What are the % rates at which those effects have been experienced by patients of similar age, level of fitness and stage of diagnosis?

I would take a notebook and a pen to record any answers to any questions, and someone to accompany me, as 4 ears are better than 2 at remembering to ask the questions and remembering to record the answers.

Every treatment option has the chance of unintended side effects, some more likely to happen than others.

When I spoke with my surgeon, Da Vinci, I told him that my most important outcome was to live, then be continent, and then if possible to have some EF preserved, in that order.  I made sure he understood that he could do whatever he needed to do in order to preserve my life expectancy.  Take out whatever he wanted as I did not want him apologising to me later for a recurrence because he had been timid in removing tissue in the belief that he was doing me a favour, which might only benefit me in the short term as there might be no long term.       

Whatever you decide to do, be 100% sure that it is right for you and your circumstances.

atb

dave

 

 

Edited by member 10 Mar 2015 at 09:27  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 10:01

Dave has summed it up. Like Dave, I chose surgery as it was to me the most efficient way of getting rid of the cancer. As your cancer may have reached the extremes of your prostate, you may lose all your nerves with surgery. Ask how important EF is for you before plumping for surgery, how likely is nerve sparing. Brian also posted a link yesterday that was proposing correlation between nerve sparing and continence as well.

Good luck in your decision. Make sure you have all the questions you need for your onco.

Paul

Stay Calm And Carry On.
User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 12:44

I chose surgery too,

one thing to consider is your age and fitness , if you decided not to have surgery and in 5 years time or so the cancer comes back what will your options be, I had to pass a fitness test for surgery,  Im in my mid 60's and consider myself resonably fit and active

The impression I now have is the older you get, the less keen they are to do surgery along with any treatment ,apart from prescribing medication

it was pointed out to me by a consultant that the the average age of life expectancy in the UK is 72,  I was taken aback somewhat probably because I didnt consider myself old or ill, I could see the cogs turning in his head though , he didnt need to paint me a picture , no mistake this was and probably is happening.

 

good luck with your decision

 

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 17:41

My husband chose surgery because he thought it was only T1 or T2. In the event he was T3 and the cancer made itself known again a couple of years later, at which point he had RT/HT. He bitterly regrets his decision to have surgery on the basis that he has had to manage unnecessary side effects.

Edited by member 10 Mar 2015 at 22:40  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 10 Mar 2015 at 18:07

John,

None of this will give you a clear steer as to which treatment option you should opt for, probably?

Interesting noting the initial staging at diagnosis and subsequent staging after pathology, mostly here found to be more advanced at pathology I suspect? Mine went from T2 to T3a. I might well end up having further treatment along the lines of Lyn's partner. All that being possible, I would not change my mind about my initial treatment choice.

Have you asked in what order any treatment choices could be made so that none are ruled out later? I was told, and things may have changed over the last 19 months, that unless I took surgery as the 1st treatment I could n to have surgery of any sort later. Please be aware that things may be different these days?

You will probably feel a lot better once you have made your first choice and got that treatment behind you, I know I did. And although I did not make anywhere near as good as a recovery as the Robotic adverts suggested I might, unlike Lyn's other half, even if I could turn back the clock, I would not change my initial choice.

good luck whatever you decide.

dave

User
Posted 11 Mar 2015 at 00:25

John

First of all let me make clear that I am incurable and so am not lucky enough to have your choice http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif

My own oncologist is vehemently anti-surgery but then again he's an oncologist http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif. The stats show that it's 50:50 regarding survival rates post surgery versus RT. Maybe that's a little grey area as surgeons tend to cherry pick their cases (you usually  see a surgeon / urologist first before any other member of an MDT http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif) and they don't go for the high Gleasons or "iffy" cases. He always says to me, " Give me a man with curable prostate cancer and I will cure him with RT to at least the same degree as a surgeon but with fewer side effects". I should point out that he has access to the latest IMRT / IGRT technology and the stats are based on much older external beam RT equipment, so the newer stuff should be much better. I don't have a choice but you do - whatever it is will be the right one but think hard and choose wisely http://community.prostatecanceruk.org/editors/tiny_mce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif

Edited by member 11 Mar 2015 at 00:26  | Reason: Not specified

Nil desperandum

Allister

User
Posted 15 Mar 2015 at 11:42
Hi all

Thank you all so much for your support and advice. After much deliberation, sleepless nights, discussions with my wife and rereading of the literature, I have decided to opt for HT followed by RT. At one stage I very nearly plumbed for the Da Vinci surgery as I thought I just want to get rid of it. However as I am Staged at T3a it has been stated that I may need RT afterwards anyway.

I started on my 21day course of HT meds this week and have my first of 3 monthly Depot injections on the 24th of this month.

So I presume I will be starting RT around June or July.

Once again thanks to all and I will keep updating as I go along

All the best to everyone

John.

John 26
User
Posted 15 Mar 2015 at 12:01

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
Hi all
Thank you all so much for your support and advice. After much deliberation, sleepless nights, discussions with my wife and rereading of the literature, I have decided to opt for HT followed by RT. At one stage I very nearly plumbed for the Da Vinci surgery as I thought I just want to get rid of it. However as I am Staged at T3a it has been stated that I may need RT afterwards anyway.
I started on my 21day course of HT meds this week and have my first of 3 monthly Depot injections on the 24th of this month.
So I presume I will be starting RT around June or July.
Once again thanks to all and I will keep updating as I go along
All the best to everyone
John.

Wishing you well on your chosen treatment path...

Given your current clinical staging and your reasoning, I'm sure you have made the right decision for you as an individual.

Luther

User
Posted 15 Mar 2015 at 12:01
John

well done decision made now you have stick with it and do not look back.

I hope the HT gets everything under control for you ahead of your RT.

best wishes

Mo

User
Posted 15 Mar 2015 at 12:24

Good luck with your choice of treatment, on balance probably the best option for you at tis stage. Don't look back.

Now enjoy the weekend.

dave

User
Posted 16 Mar 2015 at 21:44

Hi John- good luck with your decision, stick with it. If you look at my profile we're pretty similar. I'm nearly a month now into HT, expect RT in June sometime. We can compare notes as we go along ! Everyone is very supportive here. As a new boy I feel a bit of a fraud when I see what others have to contend with, but time will tell.

User
Posted 17 Mar 2015 at 16:55

I have to agree with the others John in that, after considering the options, you have made your choice rather than somebody else made it for you. there's a peace of mind in that.

Good luck and best wishes.

dl

User
Posted 19 Apr 2015 at 22:16
Hi all

I am continuing with the hormone treatment (Prostap 3 DCS 11.25 mg) prior to any RT that may be starting around June.

After being seen by the team looking after me, I have been offered the opportunity to have DELINEATE RT treatment.

This is part of a trial that involves extra MRI and CT scan in order to place 3 gold seeds into the prostate.

The procedure is apparently similar to that carried out for the prostate biopsy.

The intention is to be able to target the cancer within the prostate more accurately via the gold seeds on scans using IMRT AND IGRT, a higher amount of radiation is aimed at the tumour and less to other areas surrounding it. Also the treatment is daily over a four week period as opposed to Seven weeks on the normal treatment.

I would appreciate any replies relating to this type of treatment especially from anyone who has taken part in this trial.

Best regards to all

John

John 26
User
Posted 22 Apr 2015 at 14:33

Hello John,

 

I had the 3 gold seeds fitted, they are called "fiducial markers". They allow the exact position of your prostate to be located using X-Rays, as the Prostate can move 2-3 cm day to day. 

I had IMRT for 37 fractions back at the end of 2011. My Onco went for the fiducial markers as I was T3B with spread into both seminal vesicles, and he wanted to get the best separation between the area of treatment and my bowel, to limit any collateral damage.

The good news is that I have now been discharged from Oncology after nearly 3 years on ADT, and my PSA is down to 0.1. Also I have very little long-term damage to my bowel, although I am on Imodium daily to keep it all "under control"!  However, When they fitted the gold seeds, they said it would feel similar to having a biopsy, but I found it a lot more painful! I would suggest you ask whether they give an anaesthetic when to carry out the procedure.

My experience of Radiation Therapy was good. It was easier than I anticipated, and the staff in the department were all very friendly, and put you at ease. There are a few side effects, but they are easily liable with, and the nurses there are always willing to advise if you ask.

 

Hope all goes well for you.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

User
Posted 29 Apr 2015 at 11:34
Hi Peter

Thank you so much for your reply. I feel that it has reassured me and it is good to get some information from someone who has been on this treatment.

I have my next appointment with the team in a few weeks time and depending on the results of my blood tests will hopefully start my treatment ASAP.

Thanks again and all the best with your continued good progress.

John.

John 26
 
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