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PET scan dilemma.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 15:37

Hi I’m 6 weeks post op RARP and just had a very frank conversation over the phone with my surgeon. My 6 week post op psa is 0.2 and showed cause for concern. The histology showed that although the prostate has been removed and the lymph nodes removed and tested being negative there are signs the cancer is still there, possible in my lymph nodes and also close to my bladder. This new has been devastating today and I’m not sure where I am. 

My surgeon has ordered a PET scan and a second psa test to establish the next steps, I feel quite lost if I’m honest. 

Carl

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 16:08

Very sorry to hear that Carl. 😟 Sounds like there might have been a bit left behind. Very disturbing thoughts will be racing through your mind, but don't panic. The PSA test needs confirming, and the PET scan should pinpoint any areas that might need zapping with RT.

_____

Two cannibals named Ectomy and Prost, all alone on a Desert island.

Prost was the strongest, so Prost ate Ectomy.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 17:20

Carl,

I'm really sorry to hear your news. Its not what any of us want to receive post surgery but its not all gloom either. A friend of mine found that they hadn't quite got everything at surgery and he had a post op PSA of 0.2 also. He had a Gallium 68 PSMA Pet Scan following a 2nd PSA test . It didn't show anything up and at the moment (he is nearly a year on from surgery now ) so they are monitoring him for the time being. His PSA is only rising very slowly and they are content to monitor for the time being. I guess when they can identify where it is then there will be some further treatment. You still have plenty of options.It sounds like you are going through the wars with the other stuff . that I would suspect is unrelated . Hope you are feeling a bit better soon.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 18:00

I'm really sorry to read that Carl.  It must give you plenty of turmoil.  Hopefully it will stabilise as it sinks in that the surgeon is offering you a pathway of a scan and it appears the potential for more surgery or radiotherapy.   Waiting is always a trial so let us know when the scan date comes.   I found the Macmillan Nurse very helpful when I had scans as I could ring to get the results before the consultant appointment.

To have a parallel pain will add to it, I had one and was convinced it was something bad but actually it was arthritis.  The Macmillan Nurse also told me I'd think every pain was associated when it's rare it is.

So all the best, keep in touch, Peter

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 19:37

Carl sorry to hear your latest news and that your post op recovery has been rough. Gallstones can cause utter misery.

Our best wishes to you and your wife.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 21:11

Carl,
Really sorry to hear your news.

However, it is really good they're offering a PET scan before any RT - that often doesn't happen.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 23:12

I am so sorry to hear your news Carl.  Sounds like you had a really rough time after your surgery.  Sometimes when you have pain, such as from suspected gallstones, this can cause extreme sickness.  You have been so unlucky to have this alongside your PCa.  I hope this can be sorted for you very quickly and hopefully take some worry away.  Good luck with the PET scan and results.

Very best wishes to you and your wife.

AngeX

User
Posted 25 Aug 2020 at 09:57

Hello Carlos, sorry to hear that the PSA is higher than expected and good luck with the PET scan. As ever please keep us up to date.

My surgery was just before yours but given my Gleason 9 I am expecting recurrence so I appreciate reading more about peoples experiences with different scans.

On the gallbladder front I had my gallbladder removed 15 years ago (I was 40 at the time). I suffered from severe pain, after each meal I had to lie down and sweat it out. Sadly in my case it was misdiagnosed as acid reflux for a long time. The operation was ok so nothing to worry about. The only side affect I have is that fatty foods (which I try to avoid) go straight through me.

I did find an article linking gallbladder disease with PCa when I was searching he internet after my diagnosis:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5325450/

Keep in touch, Richard

User
Posted 26 Aug 2020 at 07:15
Not good news, Carlos, but don't start anticipating your demise; your situation is not terribly uncommon and with salvage RT (and presumably accompanying HT) you'd still be on a curative treatment path. RT is for most people a relatively "gentle" treatment. It basically takes over your life for a couple of months, but for most of it you'll almost certainly have little to no side-effects.

Best of luck with the scan,

Chris

User
Posted 26 Aug 2020 at 19:22

I am convinced that being fit helps mitigate effects of RT and most people cope well with it anyway. I was a long time retired before having my RT and I think it is mainly the HT that often precedes and accompanies it that is primarily responsible for among other things general tiredness and early fatigue often experienced. RT does add to this but not seemingly greatly for most men. Men who do heavy manual work are more likely to be more adversely affected than those who have physically less demanding work. Nevertheless a small number of men may be emotionally upset by HT+RT regardless of the work they do. The question is only really answered by an individual when the treatment starts and even then reactions may change over the course of the treatment.

Edited by member 02 Sep 2020 at 00:43  | Reason: missed word

Barry
User
Posted 27 Aug 2020 at 07:34
Hi Carlos

When I had my RT last year all my appointments were around lunch time, parking at Preston Hospital was impossible so I had to park a mile away and walk both ways.

This didn't present any problems.

The one thing I did find after 10 sessions I had pretty bad trots in the morning and on one occasion I thought I'd miss the appointment but just made it.

This all settled down a couple of weeks after the treatment stopped.

User
Posted 27 Aug 2020 at 08:20
My RT took about 3h every day: an hour's drive to get from home to the Clatterbridge Cancer Centre, an hour there, and an hour's drive back home. For the first four weeks of my 6-week treatment yes, I could have worked (although I actually didn't). For the last two weeks of the treatment and perhaps a fortnight after treatment finished I probably couldn't. The radiation irritated my bladder which meant I was having to pee every 30-45m 24h a day, so I was absolutely shattered through lack of sleep. Not everyone experiences this, but it is a relatively common side-effect.

If you're able to arrange your RT for either early morning or late afternoon you should be able to do at least most of a day's work around it. I asked for mine to be at midday to avoid motorway traffic.

Best wishes,

Chris

User
Posted 31 Aug 2020 at 17:33

I'm sorry to hear that. My husband is in a similar situation; he had a prostectomy in February and at his post PSA was 2.0 and has was 2.1 at the last test. He has had 3 more scans; MRI, bone scan and PET scan, and they found cancer in two lymph nodes outside the prostate bed. Ironically he had 12 lymph nodes removed during surgery, but now it was found in two others! Unfortunately, they couldn't remove them surgically, because they are close to blood vessels! So my husband just started on hormone tablets on Friday, and will get his first injection in two weeks. 

 

In two weeks he has a meeting with oncologist, etc to discuss his radiotherapy treatment, etc. It is tough when you've just had surgery and then get this news. Good luck to you!

User
Posted 31 Aug 2020 at 17:42

It's also important to get regular PSA test, Ian gets them every 2 months now.

User
Posted 31 Aug 2020 at 17:46

You should also not start RT too soon, to give your bladder a chance to regain its function. Waiting at least six months is advisable. My husband's RT will probably start in 3-6 months, and this will give his bladder more time to heal. HT is given beforehand anyway.

User
Posted 03 Sep 2020 at 20:16
Carlos, you are understandably concerned, but it seem you are getting all the right attention and tests , and are getting them done early. So you are getting the best care.

My experience (search my prior posts). I had Robotic Surgery mid-December 2019. PSA 6 week post-surgery was 0.09. Then three months later, PSA rose to 0.33. That triggered a whole series of tests -- Bone Scan, CT Scan, and PSMA PET Scan. I'm in Canada and am being treated at the top cancer center here. Fortunately, they are a clinical trial for the most sensitive PSMA PET scan (using the F18-DCFPyL radiotracer) -- this is only available at present in the US and Canada as part of clinical trials. In the UK, I believe the most sensitive scan is the Ga68 PSMA PET scan (it's one of the best available, but not quite as sensitive).

The F18-DCFPyL PSMA PET scan I had did not pick up anything (which is more good news than bad news). Since no specific site was pinpointed, I had 6.5 weeks of salvage radiation to the prostate bed area (with targeting based on post-surgery pathology). I was due to see my surgeon, so I had another PSA test only 3.5 weeks after SRT (really too soon - oncologist warned it could be higher, but might as well do another test to get another base point). The PSA result was 0.08, so lower than after surgery.

Here a good article on when salvage radiation is useful: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/brady-urology-institute/specialties/conditions-and-treatments/prostate-cancer/prostate-cancer-questions/two-studies-help-you-decide-when-to-pursue-radiation-after-surgery

If you do get Salvage Radiation, it may be with Hormone therapy or without. This site is the best site I've found for sharing experiences and learning from others. When I was getting ready for Salvage Radiation, I knew from this site to ask about Hormone Therapy (most here are getting HT with SRT). My oncologist recommended SRT without Hormone Therapy for me, based on my situation. Lynn asked me a question in another conversation, prompting me to into this some more. This article from the Journal of Radiation Oncology explains that it is an oversimplification that all men undergoing SRT should have Hormone Therapy. (two links to same article)

https://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(18)31032-0/fulltext

https://secure.jbs.elsevierhealth.com/action/getSharedSiteSession?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redjournal.org%2Farticle%2FS0360-3016%2818%2931032-0%2Ffulltext&rc=0

The key Q&A from the article which explains why they do not recommended HT with SRT in all cases is:

Question: What do you mean by clinically meaningful endpoints?

Answer: The reason we treat patients is to improve their quantity and/or quality of life. Things that affect these endpoints are clinically meaningful. Things that simply alter a laboratory result, such as the PSA, are not clinical benefits.

User
Posted 04 Sep 2020 at 05:28

Most decent bulletin boards have a symbol to click to post a hyper-link and then you just type it. This one did at one time I seem to recall. Yet it disappeared the same way as the ‘back to top’ button.

I have just discovered the hyper-link button and others on the edit page. Why aren’t they there for the original post? It would take the programmer about five minutes to fix it!

Cheers, John.

Edited by member 04 Sep 2020 at 05:33  | Reason: Not specified

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User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 16:08

Very sorry to hear that Carl. 😟 Sounds like there might have been a bit left behind. Very disturbing thoughts will be racing through your mind, but don't panic. The PSA test needs confirming, and the PET scan should pinpoint any areas that might need zapping with RT.

_____

Two cannibals named Ectomy and Prost, all alone on a Desert island.

Prost was the strongest, so Prost ate Ectomy.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 16:22

I’ve had quite a hard time post surgery with vomiting in the early stages and also a really bad pain in my right side that I had pre surgery, this has been worse than the actual surgery if I’m honest. I’m waiting for some scans to see what this might be, suspected gallstones but will have to wait and see. I truly wasn’t expecting the news I’ve received today and it’s hard to get past the feeling of impending doom, I don’t fear dying I’m just not ready yet and I hate putting my lovely wife though all this, without her so far I wouldn’t of got past the awful pain of vomiting constantly 3 days and 10 days after RARP.

I just don’t know what to think now........

Carl.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 17:20

Carl,

I'm really sorry to hear your news. Its not what any of us want to receive post surgery but its not all gloom either. A friend of mine found that they hadn't quite got everything at surgery and he had a post op PSA of 0.2 also. He had a Gallium 68 PSMA Pet Scan following a 2nd PSA test . It didn't show anything up and at the moment (he is nearly a year on from surgery now ) so they are monitoring him for the time being. His PSA is only rising very slowly and they are content to monitor for the time being. I guess when they can identify where it is then there will be some further treatment. You still have plenty of options.It sounds like you are going through the wars with the other stuff . that I would suspect is unrelated . Hope you are feeling a bit better soon.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 18:00

I'm really sorry to read that Carl.  It must give you plenty of turmoil.  Hopefully it will stabilise as it sinks in that the surgeon is offering you a pathway of a scan and it appears the potential for more surgery or radiotherapy.   Waiting is always a trial so let us know when the scan date comes.   I found the Macmillan Nurse very helpful when I had scans as I could ring to get the results before the consultant appointment.

To have a parallel pain will add to it, I had one and was convinced it was something bad but actually it was arthritis.  The Macmillan Nurse also told me I'd think every pain was associated when it's rare it is.

So all the best, keep in touch, Peter

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 19:37

Carl sorry to hear your latest news and that your post op recovery has been rough. Gallstones can cause utter misery.

Our best wishes to you and your wife.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 21:11

Carl,
Really sorry to hear your news.

However, it is really good they're offering a PET scan before any RT - that often doesn't happen.

User
Posted 24 Aug 2020 at 23:12

I am so sorry to hear your news Carl.  Sounds like you had a really rough time after your surgery.  Sometimes when you have pain, such as from suspected gallstones, this can cause extreme sickness.  You have been so unlucky to have this alongside your PCa.  I hope this can be sorted for you very quickly and hopefully take some worry away.  Good luck with the PET scan and results.

Very best wishes to you and your wife.

AngeX

User
Posted 25 Aug 2020 at 09:57

Hello Carlos, sorry to hear that the PSA is higher than expected and good luck with the PET scan. As ever please keep us up to date.

My surgery was just before yours but given my Gleason 9 I am expecting recurrence so I appreciate reading more about peoples experiences with different scans.

On the gallbladder front I had my gallbladder removed 15 years ago (I was 40 at the time). I suffered from severe pain, after each meal I had to lie down and sweat it out. Sadly in my case it was misdiagnosed as acid reflux for a long time. The operation was ok so nothing to worry about. The only side affect I have is that fatty foods (which I try to avoid) go straight through me.

I did find an article linking gallbladder disease with PCa when I was searching he internet after my diagnosis:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5325450/

Keep in touch, Richard

User
Posted 26 Aug 2020 at 07:15
Not good news, Carlos, but don't start anticipating your demise; your situation is not terribly uncommon and with salvage RT (and presumably accompanying HT) you'd still be on a curative treatment path. RT is for most people a relatively "gentle" treatment. It basically takes over your life for a couple of months, but for most of it you'll almost certainly have little to no side-effects.

Best of luck with the scan,

Chris

User
Posted 26 Aug 2020 at 16:12

Hi

Can you just continue working whilst having RT ? I had my surgery July 9th and I’m hoping to return to work end of Sept. My PET scan was supposed to be early next week but the person who operates the new machine in South Wales is on annual leave for the next 2 weeks, so I’m anticipating not having the scan for at least 3 to 4 weeks. I’ve got another psa test booked in for the 16th Sept as instructed by my surgeon.

Carl.

User
Posted 26 Aug 2020 at 18:27
Most people continue to work - John had his RT at 8.30 every morning on his way to the office! He also carried on with the gym most days, cycling and playing rugby.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 26 Aug 2020 at 19:22

I am convinced that being fit helps mitigate effects of RT and most people cope well with it anyway. I was a long time retired before having my RT and I think it is mainly the HT that often precedes and accompanies it that is primarily responsible for among other things general tiredness and early fatigue often experienced. RT does add to this but not seemingly greatly for most men. Men who do heavy manual work are more likely to be more adversely affected than those who have physically less demanding work. Nevertheless a small number of men may be emotionally upset by HT+RT regardless of the work they do. The question is only really answered by an individual when the treatment starts and even then reactions may change over the course of the treatment.

Edited by member 02 Sep 2020 at 00:43  | Reason: missed word

Barry
User
Posted 27 Aug 2020 at 07:34
Hi Carlos

When I had my RT last year all my appointments were around lunch time, parking at Preston Hospital was impossible so I had to park a mile away and walk both ways.

This didn't present any problems.

The one thing I did find after 10 sessions I had pretty bad trots in the morning and on one occasion I thought I'd miss the appointment but just made it.

This all settled down a couple of weeks after the treatment stopped.

User
Posted 27 Aug 2020 at 08:20
My RT took about 3h every day: an hour's drive to get from home to the Clatterbridge Cancer Centre, an hour there, and an hour's drive back home. For the first four weeks of my 6-week treatment yes, I could have worked (although I actually didn't). For the last two weeks of the treatment and perhaps a fortnight after treatment finished I probably couldn't. The radiation irritated my bladder which meant I was having to pee every 30-45m 24h a day, so I was absolutely shattered through lack of sleep. Not everyone experiences this, but it is a relatively common side-effect.

If you're able to arrange your RT for either early morning or late afternoon you should be able to do at least most of a day's work around it. I asked for mine to be at midday to avoid motorway traffic.

Best wishes,

Chris

User
Posted 31 Aug 2020 at 17:33

I'm sorry to hear that. My husband is in a similar situation; he had a prostectomy in February and at his post PSA was 2.0 and has was 2.1 at the last test. He has had 3 more scans; MRI, bone scan and PET scan, and they found cancer in two lymph nodes outside the prostate bed. Ironically he had 12 lymph nodes removed during surgery, but now it was found in two others! Unfortunately, they couldn't remove them surgically, because they are close to blood vessels! So my husband just started on hormone tablets on Friday, and will get his first injection in two weeks. 

 

In two weeks he has a meeting with oncologist, etc to discuss his radiotherapy treatment, etc. It is tough when you've just had surgery and then get this news. Good luck to you!

User
Posted 31 Aug 2020 at 17:42

It's also important to get regular PSA test, Ian gets them every 2 months now.

User
Posted 31 Aug 2020 at 17:46

You should also not start RT too soon, to give your bladder a chance to regain its function. Waiting at least six months is advisable. My husband's RT will probably start in 3-6 months, and this will give his bladder more time to heal. HT is given beforehand anyway.

User
Posted 03 Sep 2020 at 20:16
Carlos, you are understandably concerned, but it seem you are getting all the right attention and tests , and are getting them done early. So you are getting the best care.

My experience (search my prior posts). I had Robotic Surgery mid-December 2019. PSA 6 week post-surgery was 0.09. Then three months later, PSA rose to 0.33. That triggered a whole series of tests -- Bone Scan, CT Scan, and PSMA PET Scan. I'm in Canada and am being treated at the top cancer center here. Fortunately, they are a clinical trial for the most sensitive PSMA PET scan (using the F18-DCFPyL radiotracer) -- this is only available at present in the US and Canada as part of clinical trials. In the UK, I believe the most sensitive scan is the Ga68 PSMA PET scan (it's one of the best available, but not quite as sensitive).

The F18-DCFPyL PSMA PET scan I had did not pick up anything (which is more good news than bad news). Since no specific site was pinpointed, I had 6.5 weeks of salvage radiation to the prostate bed area (with targeting based on post-surgery pathology). I was due to see my surgeon, so I had another PSA test only 3.5 weeks after SRT (really too soon - oncologist warned it could be higher, but might as well do another test to get another base point). The PSA result was 0.08, so lower than after surgery.

Here a good article on when salvage radiation is useful: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/brady-urology-institute/specialties/conditions-and-treatments/prostate-cancer/prostate-cancer-questions/two-studies-help-you-decide-when-to-pursue-radiation-after-surgery

If you do get Salvage Radiation, it may be with Hormone therapy or without. This site is the best site I've found for sharing experiences and learning from others. When I was getting ready for Salvage Radiation, I knew from this site to ask about Hormone Therapy (most here are getting HT with SRT). My oncologist recommended SRT without Hormone Therapy for me, based on my situation. Lynn asked me a question in another conversation, prompting me to into this some more. This article from the Journal of Radiation Oncology explains that it is an oversimplification that all men undergoing SRT should have Hormone Therapy. (two links to same article)

https://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(18)31032-0/fulltext

https://secure.jbs.elsevierhealth.com/action/getSharedSiteSession?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redjournal.org%2Farticle%2FS0360-3016%2818%2931032-0%2Ffulltext&rc=0

The key Q&A from the article which explains why they do not recommended HT with SRT in all cases is:

Question: What do you mean by clinically meaningful endpoints?

Answer: The reason we treat patients is to improve their quantity and/or quality of life. Things that affect these endpoints are clinically meaningful. Things that simply alter a laboratory result, such as the PSA, are not clinical benefits.

User
Posted 03 Sep 2020 at 21:10
I am not sure how helpful that is, to be honest. It doesn't seem very kind to warn someone away from what is normal practice in the UK simply because it is a bit different in your specific case. HT does far more than just alter a lab result - in most cases, it starves the cancer so that the radiotherapy has a bigger impact; to suggest it has no clinical benefit is bizarre. The paper you have linked is a literature review, based on other people's previous work including trials that closed in 2006 and 2010 - it is also hard to know what bias may have influenced the choice of data to use in the literature review ... generally speaking, you can find statistics to support whatever conclusion you hope to find.

Regardless, if you want to post links to papers, you need to:-

- post the comment and then go back into it through 'edit'

- hover your cursor at the end of the hyperlink and click return

- save the edited post

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 04 Sep 2020 at 05:28

Most decent bulletin boards have a symbol to click to post a hyper-link and then you just type it. This one did at one time I seem to recall. Yet it disappeared the same way as the ‘back to top’ button.

I have just discovered the hyper-link button and others on the edit page. Why aren’t they there for the original post? It would take the programmer about five minutes to fix it!

Cheers, John.

Edited by member 04 Sep 2020 at 05:33  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 04 Sep 2020 at 05:55

Just checked because I know I've put hyperlinks in original posts, and the link is there.

User
Posted 04 Sep 2020 at 07:37

If you are using  the android platform touch and hold a word  in the web address and it will bring up option to open the link, you may need to sometimes select all of the address.

 

Thanks Chris

User
Posted 10 Sep 2020 at 14:55

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member
I am not sure how helpful that is, to be honest. It doesn't seem very kind to warn someone away from what is normal practice in the UK simply because it is a bit different in your specific case. HT does far more than just alter a lab result - in most cases, it starves the cancer so that the radiotherapy has a bigger impact; to suggest it has no clinical benefit is bizarre. The paper you have linked is a literature review, based on other people's previous work including trials that closed in 2006 and 2010 - it is also hard to know what bias may have influenced the choice of data to use in the literature review ... generally speaking, you can find statistics to support whatever conclusion you hope to find.

Sorry if it was taken the wrong way,  but I shared it to share information.   I learn a lot from others posts and as a result I knew to ask specifically about HT with SRT.    And my oncologist said for my situation, he would not recommend it. (whereas I know from posts here that most on this forum get HT).   So being curious,  I looked for more information on this.   

More information on different practices can't be a bad thing.   My center prides itself on being one of top cancer centers in the world.  Doesn't mean everything they do is right,  but wanted to just share my experience.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by member 10 Sep 2020 at 15:00  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 10 Sep 2020 at 16:39
It was more a criticism of that particular piece of research & the conclusions drawn out as a result. Absolutely, your onco is best placed to advise you on your specific case - but it is important that others reading this thread in the future understand that it may not apply to them.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

 
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