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HRT for low testosterone

User
Posted 11 Apr 2023 at 15:11

Hi Chaps, I,m  new to this forum but diagnosed in 2017, ages 64,  pC3a G8 had radical prostactomy  followed by 7 weeks RT and 3 years on Prostap3 Hormone treatment (which for me was the worst of all the treatments) Now on 6 monthly psa and testosterone tests. My Oncologist wants to put me on Testosterone replacement therapy (HRT) because he said my “free”T is very low? But I’m sceptical of this because I understand that Testosterone can make the cancer cells grow again, and apart from having very low libido and some fatigue, I don’t feel too bad, now that I,m off the dreaded Prostate injections!

Has anyone heard if this HRT being prescribed to any PC cancer patients? And if so what has been the outcomes?

I don’t have a partner at present, but even so, it’s always nice to have some libido in life! I don’t quite understand the difference between “Bound” and “Free” Testosterone? Any advice welcome?

cheers,

Mgmick

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 10:47

Ideally, you want to know what your Testosterone level was before treatment, but sadly that baseline value is rarely obtained.

SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin) level is one way to calculate the free to total Testosterone level. It's also notable because if you're still under the influence of hormone therapy, it will be high, causing low free Testosterone, because more will be bound to SHBG.

To investigate your Testosterone level, you ideally want to know if your brain wants more, or if you are currently at the level your brain is aiming at. This is done by measuring the level of LH (Luteinising Hormone) to see if your brain is requesting more Testosterone than your current level. LH is the signal from your brain to your Testicles, asking them to produce more or less Testosterone. Sometimes FSH is measured instead - I'm not sure why - it's the signal from the brain to your Testicles to produce sperm which is a separate testicular function, and it's cyclic (like a woman's periods - same hormone used to tell ovaries to release an egg).

If LH is high, that suggests your brain is asking for more Testosterone than your testicles can produce. Assuming there's nothing wrong with your testicles which is fixable, then the only way to get more testosterone would be to have extra Testosterone via TRT.

If LH is normal, then your brain doesn't want any more Testosterone. It might be that this is normal for you (and that's why it would be useful to know what your Testosterone level was before treatment). Different people have different sensitivities of androgen receptors, and if your androgen receptors are very sensitive, your brain sets your Testosterone level at the low end of normal, and if your androgen receptors are not very sensitive, it sets your Testosterone level at the high end of normal. Your brain (hypothalamus and pituitary glands) contain androgen receptors to sense your Testosterone level and adjust it to the required level corresponding to your androgen receptor sensitivity. If your LH is normal but it's still thought you need more Testosterone, then rather than add extra Testosterone via TRT (which would cause your body to produce even less as it compensates), it might be better to get your brain to produce more LH so your Testicles produce more Testosterone more naturally. This can be done by using low levels of Tamoxifen which will partially block the androgen receptors in the brain so the brain thinks there's less Testosterone than there really is, and consequently requests the testicles to produce more. (Note, Tamoxifen won't have this effect if you're on hormone therapy.) Tamoxifen is not without risk itself, so as with any medication, you and your clinician need to weigh the pros and cons of any treatment.

Given your oncologist is happy for your Testosterone to be higher, and the evidence suggests that for prostate cancer patients believed cured with no evidence of disease, treating low Testosterone levels doesn't increase risk of recurrence, I think your best option would be to ask for a referral to an Andrologist to investigate your Testosterone level and suggest if appropriate how to rise it.

 

Edited by member 12 Apr 2023 at 17:57  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 11 Apr 2023 at 19:04
mgmick, I have been asking for trt and be monitored for a long time but no and now I have osteoporosis, I finished treatment in 2016 and I have been on 6monthly checks since psa 0.03,I have a face to face gp appointment tomorrow and I will ask again for trt or sarms, if not I will look for a doc who is ok with it.good luck.
User
Posted 11 Apr 2023 at 22:25
Personally, I would trust the oncologist - s/he has your blood readings and thinks you need it. However, waiting 3 months for the next set of readings seems reasonable.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 01:27

How long since you finished hormone therapy, i.e. how long since the date you would have had the next injection if you hadn't stopped?

Free Testosterone will be very low if you are still under the effects of HT, because it also pushes up SHBG above normal range which causes more of what little Testosterone you have to be bound rather than free. Bound Testosterone isn't available for use by some of the processes which use Testosterone (in particular, conversion to Estrogen for good bone health).

What's happened to your Testosterone level since you finished HT? It takes a good while to recover after HT. If you reach the point where it can be said it isn't likely to recover, the TRT is probably a good idea. However, if you start taking extra Testosterone before the body recovers its own production, I do wonder if you might actually stop the body producing its own, as in the case of taking anabolic steroids.

Taking TRT after successful curative treatment for prostate cancer with no evidence of disease doesn't appear to increase the incidence of recurrence.

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 17:34
Your PSA is irrelevant to the decision - it is expected to go up as you still have a prostate. If you are going to wait for the next set of tests, it us the testosterone reading that is going to be significant. Your PSA could rise to 2.1 without causing any concern.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 18:03

Hiya Lyn, Sorry to correct you but I don’t have a prostate, I had an RP in August 2017, followed by RT and 3 years of Prostap 3 HT.( I’ve listed my treatment on my profile)

l’ve heard back from my Onco, he wants me to start the Testavan (sounds like an MOT for a Van!) gel tomorrow, so he has made the decision for me. Once I’ve had my next PSA & T blood test on June 2nd I’ll post the results and an update on how the gel has worked….. or hasn’t!

Thanks

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 18:06
My mistake
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

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User
Posted 11 Apr 2023 at 16:09
Lordy, we have other members here begging for testosterone replacement and not able to get it! Having some help to get your T back to a normal level is not dangerous; in theory, your body should have done it by itself when your HT finished. Having a normal level of T will only make cancer grow if the treatments you have had were not successful - if it was risky Having testosterone floating around, all men would be on HT for life following RT or RP, just in case.

One of the medium to long term risks of low testosterone is osteoporosis - you want to avoid that if you can

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 11 Apr 2023 at 17:34

Hi LynEyre

Thanks for your quick reply. So do you think it’s safe for me to proceed with this HRT gel (called Testavan) the information leaflet advises against taking it “if you have or suspected of having prostate cancer”

FYI, after my RP in 2017, my psa was 0.2 and rose to 0.4 a month later, but after the 33 Radiotherapy sessions and 3 years of HT (Prostap 3) which ended in January 2021, my psa has been 0.01 so fingers crossed it stays that way.

However I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to start this Testavan gel yet. I may just wait to see what my next psa and Testosterone results are in June, and if the psa is still low, and T still also low, then I think I’ll risk  it and give it a go.

lve been unable to achieve an erection since the RP and had no interest in sex whilst on HT/Prostap 3; and I couldn’t get on with the vacuum pump, so the Gel might be my only alternative?

Hoping to get some useful advice from anyone who’s been on this Testavan gel

Many Thanks,

Mgmick

User
Posted 11 Apr 2023 at 19:04
mgmick, I have been asking for trt and be monitored for a long time but no and now I have osteoporosis, I finished treatment in 2016 and I have been on 6monthly checks since psa 0.03,I have a face to face gp appointment tomorrow and I will ask again for trt or sarms, if not I will look for a doc who is ok with it.good luck.
User
Posted 11 Apr 2023 at 22:25
Personally, I would trust the oncologist - s/he has your blood readings and thinks you need it. However, waiting 3 months for the next set of readings seems reasonable.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 01:27

How long since you finished hormone therapy, i.e. how long since the date you would have had the next injection if you hadn't stopped?

Free Testosterone will be very low if you are still under the effects of HT, because it also pushes up SHBG above normal range which causes more of what little Testosterone you have to be bound rather than free. Bound Testosterone isn't available for use by some of the processes which use Testosterone (in particular, conversion to Estrogen for good bone health).

What's happened to your Testosterone level since you finished HT? It takes a good while to recover after HT. If you reach the point where it can be said it isn't likely to recover, the TRT is probably a good idea. However, if you start taking extra Testosterone before the body recovers its own production, I do wonder if you might actually stop the body producing its own, as in the case of taking anabolic steroids.

Taking TRT after successful curative treatment for prostate cancer with no evidence of disease doesn't appear to increase the incidence of recurrence.

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 09:38

Hi Andy

Thanks for your advice. You raise some good points, but I don’t know what SHBG is?
My last Prostap 3 injection was Jan 2021, so my next injection would have been March 21, so it’s been 2 years off HT now. I started to feel like my old self around 6 months after my last injection, indeed my testosterone shot up to 11.4 in June 2021, and  I could feel the difference in a comeback in libido and general health. 6 months later (I,m on 6 monthly psa & testosterone tests) my T dropped to 9, which I could also feel with a drop off in libido.

In December 2022, my Onco said that 9 is ‘low, but not that low’ but he said my Free T was very low, which seemed to concern him, maybe because I’ve had moderate osteoporosis for many years, and have to be infused with Zolendronic Acid annually, (but, luckily I haven’t broken any bones as yet)  and I think this may be why he prescribed the TRT gel, which I only received yesterday, but think I,m going to wait until after my next PSA & T blood test in early June, before I start it.

He wouldn’t tell me the reading of my Free T or indeed the SHGB reading if that was tested for as well? I must ask him about this reading next time.

My PC was G8 so fairly aggressive, during my RP in Aug 2017, the surgeon also took out 20 adjacent nodes which were all negative. However , with my psa still showing at 0.4, the PET scan a few months later showed a positive internal iliac node, which was why I needed the RT and HT, so having been treated with intent to cure, my psa results have been encouraging so far.

Thanks,

 

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 10:47

Ideally, you want to know what your Testosterone level was before treatment, but sadly that baseline value is rarely obtained.

SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin) level is one way to calculate the free to total Testosterone level. It's also notable because if you're still under the influence of hormone therapy, it will be high, causing low free Testosterone, because more will be bound to SHBG.

To investigate your Testosterone level, you ideally want to know if your brain wants more, or if you are currently at the level your brain is aiming at. This is done by measuring the level of LH (Luteinising Hormone) to see if your brain is requesting more Testosterone than your current level. LH is the signal from your brain to your Testicles, asking them to produce more or less Testosterone. Sometimes FSH is measured instead - I'm not sure why - it's the signal from the brain to your Testicles to produce sperm which is a separate testicular function, and it's cyclic (like a woman's periods - same hormone used to tell ovaries to release an egg).

If LH is high, that suggests your brain is asking for more Testosterone than your testicles can produce. Assuming there's nothing wrong with your testicles which is fixable, then the only way to get more testosterone would be to have extra Testosterone via TRT.

If LH is normal, then your brain doesn't want any more Testosterone. It might be that this is normal for you (and that's why it would be useful to know what your Testosterone level was before treatment). Different people have different sensitivities of androgen receptors, and if your androgen receptors are very sensitive, your brain sets your Testosterone level at the low end of normal, and if your androgen receptors are not very sensitive, it sets your Testosterone level at the high end of normal. Your brain (hypothalamus and pituitary glands) contain androgen receptors to sense your Testosterone level and adjust it to the required level corresponding to your androgen receptor sensitivity. If your LH is normal but it's still thought you need more Testosterone, then rather than add extra Testosterone via TRT (which would cause your body to produce even less as it compensates), it might be better to get your brain to produce more LH so your Testicles produce more Testosterone more naturally. This can be done by using low levels of Tamoxifen which will partially block the androgen receptors in the brain so the brain thinks there's less Testosterone than there really is, and consequently requests the testicles to produce more. (Note, Tamoxifen won't have this effect if you're on hormone therapy.) Tamoxifen is not without risk itself, so as with any medication, you and your clinician need to weigh the pros and cons of any treatment.

Given your oncologist is happy for your Testosterone to be higher, and the evidence suggests that for prostate cancer patients believed cured with no evidence of disease, treating low Testosterone levels doesn't increase risk of recurrence, I think your best option would be to ask for a referral to an Andrologist to investigate your Testosterone level and suggest if appropriate how to rise it.

 

Edited by member 12 Apr 2023 at 17:57  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 11:36

Hi Andy,

Many thanks for this advice, you clearly understand a lot about this subject.

I didn’t know my T before my RP,RT, and HT treatments,  I had libido, but had problems getting good erections, which I always put down to the ageing process, before I was diagnosed, but just having libido makes you feel good, and normal.

I need to think about taking this TRT gel, and will wait until after my next psa test on June 2nd before deciding. If my psa has gone up then I won’t risk taking TRT, but I shall also ask if my SHGB can be tested at the same time, and also enquire if it’s possible to see an Andrologist, as you suggest, if this is possible on the NHS

once agin, thanks for your advice Andy

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 17:34
Your PSA is irrelevant to the decision - it is expected to go up as you still have a prostate. If you are going to wait for the next set of tests, it us the testosterone reading that is going to be significant. Your PSA could rise to 2.1 without causing any concern.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 18:03

Hiya Lyn, Sorry to correct you but I don’t have a prostate, I had an RP in August 2017, followed by RT and 3 years of Prostap 3 HT.( I’ve listed my treatment on my profile)

l’ve heard back from my Onco, he wants me to start the Testavan (sounds like an MOT for a Van!) gel tomorrow, so he has made the decision for me. Once I’ve had my next PSA & T blood test on June 2nd I’ll post the results and an update on how the gel has worked….. or hasn’t!

Thanks

User
Posted 12 Apr 2023 at 18:06
My mistake
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 25 Apr 2023 at 13:56

Just a short update on the Testavan gel, I’ve been on it now for 2 weeks but don’t feel any different apart from 1 day when I felt some unexpected libido!?

Two more weeks to go before I get a psa and testosterone blood test so we’ll see if it’s been successful, and hopefully not caused my psa to increase 

I’ll post the results once I have them and also the oncologists remarks on this therapy 

User
Posted 21 May 2023 at 09:46

TRT update

so, I’ve had 5 weeks of using the Testavan TRT gel and had a blood test

my testosterone level before starting was 9.4 and the Free T was very low around 0.1

Now my Testosterone level is 27.3 so the gel seemed to have made a big difference!

I don’t know what the Free T level is as I haven’t been told that, but I feel pretty good, I do feel that some libido has come back(but still can’t get an erection due to the RP RT and hormone treatment) but it dies feel good to have some libido. I think it’s made a difference to my strength and stamina too.

The good news is that my psa reading was still 0.01 so hopefully the T gel hadn’t affected the psa

ive ceased the Testavan gel for the time being until I’ve had further advice from my oncologist 

Have any other PC patients used this gel? any comments and advise welcome

cheers

 
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