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Waiting again....for what...?

User
Posted 21 Mar 2024 at 14:29

Hi,

Haven't posted for a while as head not in a good place and don't seem to be able to join in with all the good stories.

Quick synopsis:

Husband diagnosed one year ago, (53 years old) after PSA 9 on routine health screening

Gleason 5+4

Scan showed no spread.

Waited just 6 weeks for the RARP, and in that time absolutely no other treatment was given.

PSA still 9 after RARP and scan showed in just 6 weeks the PCa had spread to multiple sites including bones.

Fast forward to now:

Chemo done, responded well, PSA down to <0.03

After waiting just 6 weeks for a RARP which resulted in advanced metastatic spread, I would like to ask if anyone has any ideas if we should be doing anything now.

Once again we now just seem to be waiting.  Waiting for what?  Just waiting for it to come back?

I've read about oligometastatic disease and wondered if this is something we should mention at next follow up?

Should he not be having radiotherapy since chemo finished?

Sorry, just feel so angry and completely deflated :(   Lost all faith.

Hitting the keyboard keys really hard as I type!!

 

Edited by member 21 Mar 2024 at 15:23  | Reason: Not specified

Take care,

Tulippy 🌹 x

User
Posted 24 Mar 2024 at 17:11

Hi Tulippy

I really understand your frustration and I think we have all been there.

my husband was diagnosed sept 21 - Gleason 8 4+4 T3bN1M1. PSA 28.4

It seemed like an age between each stage of testing and the metastatic disease was only picked up right at the end after insisting on having a PET CT which we were originally told we didn’t need as they thought that what they could see on the bone scan was probably old fractures.

he started chemo 16/12/21 and Prostap just before that. Ever since then we have basically been waiting, as you say waiting for what - well this is my take; we are all waiting and hoping that each PSA test will remain low and that the treatment will carry on working for as long as possible. It’s a horrible waiting game that everyone on here, regardless of the extent of their disease goes through - I wouldn’t wish it on anyone!

in my husbands case he is not suitable for radiotherapy as the mets are in too many places. Prostap started to fail September 23 and he is now also on Abiraterone. 

still we wait and still we hope! PSA is rising but not sure what that means right now. Access to our oncologist is really hard which adds to the frustration and worry.

i only joined this group last year and haven’t really posted much but do find reading everyone’s stories really helps.

its so hard to stay positive sometimes but we just try to plan ahead and make sure we have lots of things to look forward to and I think that’s what lots of couples on here are doing.

sorry you are having such a hard time right now.

 

 

User
Posted 21 Mar 2024 at 23:07
I think it is important to understand that the cancer didn't spread in that 6 weeks - if the pre-op scan was clear and the post-op scan showed mets, that is either because they used a different tracer or a more advanced type of scan the second time, or the clusters of cancer cells just didn't show up the first time around. The 6 weeks didn't cause the spread - it doesn't happen that quickly. It is normal not to have any treatment between diagnosis and RP, particularly when the operation was arranged and done so soon after diagnosis.

With multiple mets, radiotherapy is not usually offered as it cannot reach all the sites. If his onco is involved in trials, they might talk about some high dose RT to the pelvis to slow down progression but that means risking side effects for very little benefit.

I assume from the low PSA that he is on hormone treatment? I understand that it might feel like limbo but he is having treatment - that treatment will continue for the rest of his life. You aren't waiting for the cancer to come back - it hasn't gone anywhere. It is just being starved to stop it growing. The doctors will continue to give him the HT and will monitor his PSA to ensure it is working. When the HT stops working, they will add different hormones or do the chemo again. Sometimes, men who tolerate the chemo well and get a good response will have it a few times.

You can ask about oligometastatic spread but it sounds like your husband is beyond that stage and so it wouldn't make a difference to his treatment plan.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 11:18
I think your husband is unfortunate to have got a really aggressive form of this disease and it had already micro metastasized before they removed his prostate.

PC can and does take this form fingers crossed for you both that the systemic treatment will hold it at bay for along time.

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 23:06

It is okay to be angry - your husband has incurable cancer - but I think you know the hospital didn't lie to you. His MRI scan, CT scan and bone scan didn't pick up any mets - his post-op scan was a more detailed PSMA scan.Each type of scan picks up different things (bone mets, lymph mets, mets in soft organs, large tumours, tiny clusters of cancer cells) and at different levels - in other circumstances, he might have had a clear PSMA but cancer showing up on a bone scan. Diagnosing cancer is not an exact science. 

You haven't said whether he is having hormone injections or has just stayed on bicalutimide. One way or another, his case is now no different to any other man on here with incurable prostate cancer so there will be lots of people around to answer any queries that you have about hormone treatment, chemotherapy, etc.

Edited by member 23 Mar 2024 at 23:15  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 21 Mar 2024 at 14:29

Hi,

Haven't posted for a while as head not in a good place and don't seem to be able to join in with all the good stories.

Quick synopsis:

Husband diagnosed one year ago, (53 years old) after PSA 9 on routine health screening

Gleason 5+4

Scan showed no spread.

Waited just 6 weeks for the RARP, and in that time absolutely no other treatment was given.

PSA still 9 after RARP and scan showed in just 6 weeks the PCa had spread to multiple sites including bones.

Fast forward to now:

Chemo done, responded well, PSA down to <0.03

After waiting just 6 weeks for a RARP which resulted in advanced metastatic spread, I would like to ask if anyone has any ideas if we should be doing anything now.

Once again we now just seem to be waiting.  Waiting for what?  Just waiting for it to come back?

I've read about oligometastatic disease and wondered if this is something we should mention at next follow up?

Should he not be having radiotherapy since chemo finished?

Sorry, just feel so angry and completely deflated :(   Lost all faith.

Hitting the keyboard keys really hard as I type!!

 

Edited by member 21 Mar 2024 at 15:23  | Reason: Not specified

Take care,

Tulippy 🌹 x

User
Posted 21 Mar 2024 at 16:06

Tulippy, to the layperson you certainly seem have an unusual situation. I waited four months from biopsy and diagnosis to surgery, admittedly I was only Gleason 4+3, in that time my PSA rose from 7.7 to 10. HT treatment between biopsy and surgery only seemed to be used if there was going to be a long delay and was more often seen during COVID. My GP missed a PSA of 6.9 three years before diagnosis.

 

I think I am classed as oligometastatic, my histology was not good, but my PSA did drop to 0.03 post surgery. In 2022 a PSMA scan found a tumor in one lymph node that was treated with SABR treatment. 12 after SABR  treatment my PSA had shot up from 1.8 to 6.2 and another tumor was found and treated, the PSA was 0.42 in January, my bicalutamide has finished. I see my onco in May, a doubling time of three months or a PSA of 1.0 will trigger another scan.

 

Have you spoke to the nurses on this site ,there are brilliant and a conversation may help.

 

Thanks Chris

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 08:32

Hi 

In brief I went to my doctors in Dec 21 with pain and a lump in my groin and was told it was a hernia,after many many visits back to doctors,calling an ambulance phoning 111 and going to A&E I was finally diagnosed in late April 23 with stage 4 with mets T1M1 4+4 with PSA of 2103

I quickly made an official complaint with NHS England which took around 10 months to come to the conclusion that basically they were to blame and not to blame,I now have my case currently with solicitors who are taking for ever (June 23) to reach a verdict,I am as frustrated and bitter as anyone else on this forum.

Please don't give up on asking questions,phoning people and chasing up issues.

All the best Phil 

Diagnosed late April 22 

Edited by member 23 Mar 2024 at 08:34  | Reason: Not specified

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User
Posted 21 Mar 2024 at 16:06

Tulippy, to the layperson you certainly seem have an unusual situation. I waited four months from biopsy and diagnosis to surgery, admittedly I was only Gleason 4+3, in that time my PSA rose from 7.7 to 10. HT treatment between biopsy and surgery only seemed to be used if there was going to be a long delay and was more often seen during COVID. My GP missed a PSA of 6.9 three years before diagnosis.

 

I think I am classed as oligometastatic, my histology was not good, but my PSA did drop to 0.03 post surgery. In 2022 a PSMA scan found a tumor in one lymph node that was treated with SABR treatment. 12 after SABR  treatment my PSA had shot up from 1.8 to 6.2 and another tumor was found and treated, the PSA was 0.42 in January, my bicalutamide has finished. I see my onco in May, a doubling time of three months or a PSA of 1.0 will trigger another scan.

 

Have you spoke to the nurses on this site ,there are brilliant and a conversation may help.

 

Thanks Chris

User
Posted 21 Mar 2024 at 23:07
I think it is important to understand that the cancer didn't spread in that 6 weeks - if the pre-op scan was clear and the post-op scan showed mets, that is either because they used a different tracer or a more advanced type of scan the second time, or the clusters of cancer cells just didn't show up the first time around. The 6 weeks didn't cause the spread - it doesn't happen that quickly. It is normal not to have any treatment between diagnosis and RP, particularly when the operation was arranged and done so soon after diagnosis.

With multiple mets, radiotherapy is not usually offered as it cannot reach all the sites. If his onco is involved in trials, they might talk about some high dose RT to the pelvis to slow down progression but that means risking side effects for very little benefit.

I assume from the low PSA that he is on hormone treatment? I understand that it might feel like limbo but he is having treatment - that treatment will continue for the rest of his life. You aren't waiting for the cancer to come back - it hasn't gone anywhere. It is just being starved to stop it growing. The doctors will continue to give him the HT and will monitor his PSA to ensure it is working. When the HT stops working, they will add different hormones or do the chemo again. Sometimes, men who tolerate the chemo well and get a good response will have it a few times.

You can ask about oligometastatic spread but it sounds like your husband is beyond that stage and so it wouldn't make a difference to his treatment plan.

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 00:50
Thanks Lyn,

Therefore, this information in the letter sent to us in May is all complete lies:

Presenting PSA 9.1

• 27 March 2023 - MRI of the pelvis/prostate. Prostate gland volume at approximately 21 ml

and main area of abnormality in the left lateral transitional zone with breach through the

prostate capsule (T3a stage) and closely related to ipsilateral seminal vesicle

• 11 April 2023 - biopsy confirmed a diagnosis of adenocarcinoma Gleason 4+5 with cribriform

pattern; 10/21 cores positive, bilateral disease, but mainly left-sided.

• 21 April 2023 – MDT review of available investigation concluded to local staging T3aN0.

Recommendation for staging CT and bone scan, and consideration of radical treatment

options providing localized disease. Given urinary symptoms, to consider surgery.

• 21 April 2023 – CT scan of the chest, abdomen and pelvis, essentially clear with no evidence

of distant metastases; small pelvic lymph node reported, but not significantly sized

• 24 April 2023 – bone scan clear with no evidence of metastatic disease

After the RARP in June the surgeon said he was confident it was all removed.

So either the surgeon and the whole team are liars or this has progressed very very rapidly. Either way, from what I can see my husband seems to be in a situation that no one else can understand.

This is precisely why hardly any one answers me on this forum, whereas other people have hundreds of responses.

Which is why I have not asked questions for a year.

I appreciate this is a wonderful and supportive group but I am coming to the conclusion that it is only for those that have the normal progression of this disease.

Maybe it should be put out there that PCa does not always follow the slow growing progression that everyone says time after time after time.

I feel like my husband’s experience, although rare, is very real and men should know that this disease does not always sit there just growing slowly.

Take care,

Tulippy 🌹 x

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 08:32

Hi 

In brief I went to my doctors in Dec 21 with pain and a lump in my groin and was told it was a hernia,after many many visits back to doctors,calling an ambulance phoning 111 and going to A&E I was finally diagnosed in late April 23 with stage 4 with mets T1M1 4+4 with PSA of 2103

I quickly made an official complaint with NHS England which took around 10 months to come to the conclusion that basically they were to blame and not to blame,I now have my case currently with solicitors who are taking for ever (June 23) to reach a verdict,I am as frustrated and bitter as anyone else on this forum.

Please don't give up on asking questions,phoning people and chasing up issues.

All the best Phil 

Diagnosed late April 22 

Edited by member 23 Mar 2024 at 08:34  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 09:12
What was the scan that identified the cancer spread after the RARP?

The last scan on the list you gave was a CT scan which isn't the most accurate for very small tumour detection - I suspect that the post RARP was a PET scan.

So it doesn't seem like you are being lied to but that they followed standard protocols which is fine in 99% of cases - it's unfortunate that your husband is in the 1% and I'm so sorry that was the case.

Hopefully he is now getting the treatment to help. Good luck to you both.

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 09:32

Tulippy, your husband's story does not follow the typical pattern, so it's not surprising that you have only had a few replies . The rise from July to August last year was very rapid. As touched on the the PSMA scan is far more sensitive than standard CT and bone scans. Approximately 30 percent of us  have follow up treatment, we haven't been lied to and I don't think it is  negligence. Have you considered getting a second opinion from one of professors in the country.Take care.

Thanks Chris 

 

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 10:06

I guess you've used the word "lies" for dramatic effect. And I fully approve of that, these posts should entertain as well as inform.

I think the letter you received with the diagnosis was the best information they had at the time. As Steve has said the scans were the most appropriate for 99% of people but your husband slipped through the net.

Allowing 1% to "die" (used for dramatic effect), in order to treat 99% at less cost, is the reality of the NHS. Us common folk can't expect to be treated like royalty.

People on here are very hesitant to post outside of their own experience. As your husbands situation is so unusual very few can speak from direct experience, but some have encyclopedic knowledge of other posts and research papers and can give a reasoned reply.

 

Edited by member 23 Mar 2024 at 12:21  | Reason: Not specified

Dave

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 11:18
I think your husband is unfortunate to have got a really aggressive form of this disease and it had already micro metastasized before they removed his prostate.

PC can and does take this form fingers crossed for you both that the systemic treatment will hold it at bay for along time.

User
Posted 23 Mar 2024 at 23:06

It is okay to be angry - your husband has incurable cancer - but I think you know the hospital didn't lie to you. His MRI scan, CT scan and bone scan didn't pick up any mets - his post-op scan was a more detailed PSMA scan.Each type of scan picks up different things (bone mets, lymph mets, mets in soft organs, large tumours, tiny clusters of cancer cells) and at different levels - in other circumstances, he might have had a clear PSMA but cancer showing up on a bone scan. Diagnosing cancer is not an exact science. 

You haven't said whether he is having hormone injections or has just stayed on bicalutimide. One way or another, his case is now no different to any other man on here with incurable prostate cancer so there will be lots of people around to answer any queries that you have about hormone treatment, chemotherapy, etc.

Edited by member 23 Mar 2024 at 23:15  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 24 Mar 2024 at 17:11

Hi Tulippy

I really understand your frustration and I think we have all been there.

my husband was diagnosed sept 21 - Gleason 8 4+4 T3bN1M1. PSA 28.4

It seemed like an age between each stage of testing and the metastatic disease was only picked up right at the end after insisting on having a PET CT which we were originally told we didn’t need as they thought that what they could see on the bone scan was probably old fractures.

he started chemo 16/12/21 and Prostap just before that. Ever since then we have basically been waiting, as you say waiting for what - well this is my take; we are all waiting and hoping that each PSA test will remain low and that the treatment will carry on working for as long as possible. It’s a horrible waiting game that everyone on here, regardless of the extent of their disease goes through - I wouldn’t wish it on anyone!

in my husbands case he is not suitable for radiotherapy as the mets are in too many places. Prostap started to fail September 23 and he is now also on Abiraterone. 

still we wait and still we hope! PSA is rising but not sure what that means right now. Access to our oncologist is really hard which adds to the frustration and worry.

i only joined this group last year and haven’t really posted much but do find reading everyone’s stories really helps.

its so hard to stay positive sometimes but we just try to plan ahead and make sure we have lots of things to look forward to and I think that’s what lots of couples on here are doing.

sorry you are having such a hard time right now.

 

 

 
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