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User
Posted 08 Mar 2020 at 14:55

Hi All, when I saw my oncologist he said if I do weights this could help keep my PSA down, what he didn't tell me was what sort of weight on the dumdbells how long and how often you use them.

Any ideas on the fitness side and diet would be very much appreciated.

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 16:58

I appreciate that I am lucky because many can not do what I have done but I am a massive believer in exercise. 

I was diagnosed aged 49 T4 n1m1a, now over 5 years on I have run ultramarathons all over the world. The most recent in the African jungle, 200 k over 6 days. I have run every day for the last 77 days too. I ran over 3000 miles last year, I will run more this year.

i am a plodder, I never will win anything and come about half way down in any race but even if you walk there is great benefit.

There is a fair bit of science around exercise producing antibodies that attach themselves to damaged cells when exercising. A common incorrect belief is that they reduce after exercise, they don’t reduce but are in fact hard at work repairing damaged cells.  I have had virtually no colds or sickness etc in the last 5 years including when I was on chemo, I am fitter now than I have ever been with cancer ( and remain incureable) . My PSA has gone from 342 to 0.15 where it has stayed for over a year. There is even evidence to say exercise immediately before a flu jab increases the success of that jab.

i also go to the gym, never had any upper body strength but changed what I do and am now growing muscle again. I have also lost 10 kg since last August.  

 

My diet is  predominantly vegan however when I go out I eat what I like   ( meat/dairy/eggs) and do eat fish at home.

impact exercise is also good for your bones as the impact effectively slightly damages the bones and then the body fixes the damage and some.  

Dream like you have forever, live like you only have today Avatar is me doing the 600 mile Camino de Santiago May 2019

User
Posted 08 Mar 2020 at 20:49

i feel it's better to use lighter weights more often than risking damage with fewer lifts of heavy weights particularly if you are not young and well practised. I have a hernia now!

Edited by member 10 Mar 2020 at 22:11  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
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User
Posted 08 Mar 2020 at 20:27

Hi Chris,

I don't know why he said that in relation to treatment and psa but being fitter and eating better can improve your health which might help keep you better longer.

With weights you can only do what you're capable of.  Say 10 dumbell lifts twice perhaps 8kg per dumbell.  Michael Mosley TV doctor suggested doing as many as you can in one set until your arms go, might be 25 lifts.  If you do too much it makes you more tired and stiff.

Doing stand ups from a chair is good as people often struggle with that.  It's normally called squats without a chair.

A healthy diet usually means more veg and fruit, less fat, sugar and salt.

Some say eating dairy is bad for prostate cancer. Also asparagus.   There are a lot of theories but evidence isn't very strong.

It's fairly straightforward but difficult to maintain.

Edited by member 08 Mar 2020 at 20:29  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 08 Mar 2020 at 20:44

Hi Chris,

Ive had a recent diagnosis myself and also wondering about the same thing. Ive been to the gym the past few weeks and do feel better as a result. 

Im not sure about lifting weights though.  But when at the gym I spend about 1.5 hours doing the follwoing things: eppliptical trainer, rowing machine and exercise bike for around 45 mins in total. I then spend 20 mins on 4 different weight machines. But I don't push it and find that my strength is slowly disappearing (perhaps the lack of testerone). I finish my gym time in the sauna and steam room which is for me quite therapeutic. Ive no idea of the 'researched benefits' of the latter but it does me good anyways :-).

I read somewhere that exercising helps to maintain muscle mass when on hormone therapy though. Ive tried asking medical professionals but I just get diverted, eg I was to advised to eat crisps to keep my weight up before I do chemo.. didnt answer what I was asking at all really. Im sure in time though Ill get sound advice through developing decent working relations with the care team as time goes on. 

Ill visit this conversation regularly and try to add some advice or to find out if anyone else has good advice I could follow.

Thanks for starting this conversation Chris, I have thought similar but didnt think of asking the community actually.  

 

User
Posted 08 Mar 2020 at 20:49

i feel it's better to use lighter weights more often than risking damage with fewer lifts of heavy weights particularly if you are not young and well practised. I have a hernia now!

Edited by member 10 Mar 2020 at 22:11  | Reason: Not specified

Barry
User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 07:46

Thank you all for your advice it's very much appreciated, if it helps to keep my PSA low then it's worth a try, if it does not work at least I will be ripped😂

Edited by member 09 Mar 2020 at 07:46  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 14:25

There is an American oncologist called Dr Scholz (think that's the spelling) whom you can check out on YouTube. He is a big advocate of weight training to counteract the muscle wasting side effects with attendant tiredness of Hormone Treatment for PCa.

He says he would adapt the property selling mantra of location, location, location to read weight training, weight training, weight training. He doesn't specifically talk about the effect on PSA although there are numerous articles out there attesting to the benefits of exercise in terms of increasing your chances of surviving the disease (within reason of course - it's the treatment that is the main thing here).

I've been doing light weights for some time now and I've noticed, 5 weeks into my second course of bicalutamide, that the 20 reps x 2 of bicep curls I do 2 or 3 times a week have become a bit harder already.

Scholz advocates getting some supervision, presumably in a gym setting, because he is not sure that men would push themselves hard enough. I think a lot of gyms will give you a session with a personal trainer to get you started. In my area some of the trainers have a speciality in dealing with people undergoing cancer treatment.

It's something I've been thinking about.

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 15:49

There's an interesting post by John Bollinge on the subject of reducing psa through exercise and fasting.  Someone John knows had his psa go from 13 to 9.   If you click the quote below it should take you to the post.  If you search Florida it comes up. 

You could use this as an incentive that maybe exercise does have some effect.  This case might be more exercise than you want to do.  Also the person is on Active Surveillance.

p.s.  Now I've posted it I see it only takes you to his profile.  If you search Florida it comes up in the list.

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

He has followed a diet and exercise plan following a consultation at the famous Mayo Clinic in America, and remarkably his PSA has dropped from 13 to 8.9 and his active surveillance is thus ongoing. Here’s his recipe for success:

 

Edited by member 09 Mar 2020 at 15:51  | Reason: Not specified

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 16:09
Three years ago after RARP I started excersing almost every day. Walking, running, and cycling then I got a cross trainer for the winter. I also changed my diet, no red meat or dairy, less sugar. Added loads of fruit and vegetables. Lost almost 3 stone. Since about last October I got lazy on the excercise and relaxed the diet occasionally mainly due to holidays, Christmas and travel for work.

My PSA had been undetectable until the most recent test which was .02. I know that's still very low and could just be a blip or error but I wander! Either way we will see what happens next test. Mean while I'm back on the exercise and stricter on the diet for sure.

Cheers

Bill

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 16:58

I appreciate that I am lucky because many can not do what I have done but I am a massive believer in exercise. 

I was diagnosed aged 49 T4 n1m1a, now over 5 years on I have run ultramarathons all over the world. The most recent in the African jungle, 200 k over 6 days. I have run every day for the last 77 days too. I ran over 3000 miles last year, I will run more this year.

i am a plodder, I never will win anything and come about half way down in any race but even if you walk there is great benefit.

There is a fair bit of science around exercise producing antibodies that attach themselves to damaged cells when exercising. A common incorrect belief is that they reduce after exercise, they don’t reduce but are in fact hard at work repairing damaged cells.  I have had virtually no colds or sickness etc in the last 5 years including when I was on chemo, I am fitter now than I have ever been with cancer ( and remain incureable) . My PSA has gone from 342 to 0.15 where it has stayed for over a year. There is even evidence to say exercise immediately before a flu jab increases the success of that jab.

i also go to the gym, never had any upper body strength but changed what I do and am now growing muscle again. I have also lost 10 kg since last August.  

 

My diet is  predominantly vegan however when I go out I eat what I like   ( meat/dairy/eggs) and do eat fish at home.

impact exercise is also good for your bones as the impact effectively slightly damages the bones and then the body fixes the damage and some.  

Dream like you have forever, live like you only have today Avatar is me doing the 600 mile Camino de Santiago May 2019

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 17:55

Thanks guys, I think you are all amazing, you have now given me the motivation to try and start running / brisk walking and also try to each more veg.

I work 12 hour shifts so unfortunately the gym is out of the question, I also start 20 sessions of radiotherapy next week, once that's over then the fitness regime will start and you cannot have a better insentive than trying to keep this horrible disease at Bay.

Cheers Chris

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 19:19

Hi,

My oncologist told me a few months ago of a trial currently underway in UK (I believe something similar has already taken place in the US) which is looking at the effect of strength training plus intensity training on advanced hormone resistant PCa. As far as I am aware it is done over three sessions per week consisting of one of 35 minutes strength training and 2 x 75 minutes moderate intensity exercise.

My PSA hasn’t gone back up enough yet to qualify for the trial but I have devised some sessions which I have discussed with one of the oncology physiotherapists and been given the thumbs up. His advice for weights was to start light then increase but by no more than 10% a week.

No gym work involved, all done at home.

Dave

 

Edited by member 09 Mar 2020 at 22:25  | Reason: Additional text

User
Posted 09 Mar 2020 at 19:30

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

I work 12 hour shifts so unfortunately the gym is out of the question

You don't need a gym to work out. Press ups, sit ups, squats stretches you just  use your own body.

Cheers

Bill

User
Posted 10 Mar 2020 at 10:32

I agree you don't, strictly speaking, need a gym. I'm thinking more of the motivational aspect.

Somebody mentioned chair sit ups. I read somewhere that this is an excellent exercise so I've been doing some of these. The technique is to get up and down with your arms folded so only your leg muscles are doing the work.

Unfortunately I've developed a bad back and these have become very painful so I'm just doing the light weights for now. Pretty sure I heard Michael Moseley say, in one of his many programmes, that you could either do fewer reps using a heavy weight or more using a lighter one.

I'm doing 2 sets of 20 with 3 kg dumbells. At the end of the second set my arms are feeling it. Debating whether to increase to 3 sets of 20 reps or just to add a rep at a time to the existing sets.

Even though these are light weights (I started with 2 kg dumb bells) over the past 2 years I have developed noticeably bigger biceps so something is working.

User
Posted 10 Mar 2020 at 20:52
A current study is looking at the benefits of High intensity training. However,I recall reading that wrings lifting/training produces testosterone which is sometime don’t want more of

Bri

User
Posted 10 Mar 2020 at 21:53

It doesn't make your body produce any extra testosterone Bri - if you were worried about a small surge, you would never go out of the house, drive, have an orgasm or watch another rugby match in your life! And you would certainly have to give up boot camp and holidays in the sun.

Edited by member 10 Mar 2020 at 21:55  | Reason: Not specified

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 10 Mar 2020 at 22:24
Just thinking about it a bit more, last Saturday your testosterone and your blood pressure must have been soaring as it approached 80 minutes!
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." Soren Kierkegaard

User
Posted 11 Mar 2020 at 06:15
Erm yes may have worded that slightly wrong. The weight lifting does boost testosterone not produce more.

Bri 😉

User
Posted 18 Dec 2020 at 09:52
Hi, I’ve been using weights for over 5 years as well as running, once into a routine I’ve never found it difficult to keep up even through chemo and now I’m on Enzalutamide. My oncologist has said that I am doing far better than she would have expected from my diagnosis and prognosis which was only 4 years at the time. I love feeling fit and strong, even if I can never match what I could been.
User
Posted 18 Dec 2020 at 22:23
I exercise as much as I can. 20 press ups before breakfast and lift 2 X 10 KG weights in the afternoon.

Also weather dependent walk 4-5 miles a day.

Sadly had to give up golf. Pre DX I hit the ball 220 yards off the tee and 2nd shot on the green. On Par 5s I always had a birdie chance.

After Prostap I lost 50 yards on my tee shot, 30 yards on my 2nd shot so duckeggs I used to beat by 20 shots started beating me. Found it beyond the pail so jacked it in.

Exercise is very important competing against this degenerative disease.

User
Posted 19 Dec 2020 at 12:09
Totally agree with keeping exercise going. Unfortunately over the last couple of months I have had hip pain that has varied in severity which has more or less put a stop to any serious exercise. I think it’s been caused by me getting a bit too adventurous and overdoing whereas my GP has now convinced himself that it’s tumour bone pain so I’m now awaiting on further investigation.

Dave

User
Posted 19 Dec 2020 at 12:26

Originally Posted by: Online Community Member

I agree you don't, strictly speaking, need a gym. I'm thinking more of the motivational aspect.

Somebody mentioned chair sit ups. I read somewhere that this is an excellent exercise so I've been doing some of these. The technique is to get up and down with your arms folded so only your leg muscles are doing the work.

Unfortunately I've developed a bad back and these have become very painful so I'm just doing the light weights for now. Pretty sure I heard Michael Moseley say, in one of his many programmes, that you could either do fewer reps using a heavy weight or more using a lighter one.

I'm doing 2 sets of 20 with 3 kg dumbells. At the end of the second set my arms are feeling it. Debating whether to increase to 3 sets of 20 reps or just to add a rep at a time to the existing sets.

Even though these are light weights (I started with 2 kg dumb bells) over the past 2 years I have developed noticeably bigger biceps so something is working.

I join an online class for prostate cancer patients, at least it's been online since April - used to be in a couple of gyms in Reading - part of the Reading Prostate Cancer Support Group. We do an hour every Mon, Wed, Fri, at 2pm. I already had quite muscular legs from cycling, but I'm surprised how much it's improved by biceps and triceps, just using 2kg hand weights (well, 2 litre pepsi bottles filled with water). The class is open to any patient who is interested. There's a small charge because we forced the teacher to charge us, as she no longer gets paid by the gyms, and none of us are interested in going back to the gyms at the moment. PM me if you're interested - we've had a few patients join us on Zoom from out of area, including one from the US.

Edited by member 19 Dec 2020 at 15:38  | Reason: Not specified

 
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